SAF, green hydrogen, and Minnesota’s opportunity

In this episode of Decarbonize: The Clean Energy Podcast, Fresh Energy's Isak Kvam is joined by Anjali Bains and Brandon Isakson to explore how Sustainable Aviation Fuel (SAF) and green hydrogen can help tackle one of the toughest transportation sectors to decarbonize: aviation. 

The conversation breaks down how power-to-liquid SAF, made from green hydrogen and captured carbon dioxide, can reduce lifecycle emissions by up to 90% while serving as a drop-in replacement for conventional jet fuel. Listeners will also learn why Minnesota is well positioned to become a leader in this emerging industry thanks to new state policies, abundant feedstocks, and growing private-sector investment. 

Tune in for an inside look at the technologies, policies, and economic opportunities that could help Minnesota chart a cleaner future for flight.

Further reading:

• Minnesota now incentivizes green hydrogen to produce SAF, a key climate technology
• What's up with Sustainable Aviation Fuel in Minnesota?
• The true cost of oil

Fresh Energy’s mission is to shape and drive bold policy solutions to achieve equitable carbon-neutral economies. Together we are working toward a vision of a just, prosperous, and resilient future powered by a shared commitment to a carbon-neutral economy. Learn about Fresh Energy's work and our bold "Vision 2030: Fresh Energy's Strategic Framework" at our website fresh-energy.org.


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Transcript

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00:00:12 Isak Kvam 

Hello, and welcome to Decarbonize, the Clean Energy Podcast from Fresh Energy. 

00:00:17 Isak Kvam 

Fresh Energy is a Minnesota nonprofit working to speed our state's transition to a clean energy economy. 

00:00:23 Isak Kvam 

My name is Isaac Kvam, and I'm the Director of Communications here at Fresh Energy, and I'm also your host today. 

00:00:28 Isak Kvam 

I'm excited to be joined by my esteemed colleagues, Anjali Bains, our managing director of transportation, and Brandon Isaacson, our managing director of industry. 

00:00:38 Isak Kvam 

Thanks for joining, Anjali and Brandon. 

00:00:39 Isak Kvam 

Are you both ready to talk about sustainable aviation fuel and green hydrogen? 

00:00:43 Anjali Bains 

Let's do it. 

00:00:44 Brandon Isakson 

Yeah, definitely excited. 

00:00:46 Isak Kvam 

Great. 

00:00:47 Isak Kvam 

Well, we're here today to talk about one of the harder parts of the transportation sector to decarbonize, aviation. 

00:00:53 Isak Kvam 

We've made some progress getting Minnesotans into electric vehicles charged with clean electricity, 

00:00:58 Isak Kvam 

But you can't just drop a battery into a commercial airliner to decarbonize it because the weight of the battery is too heavy for long haul flights. 

00:01:06 Isak Kvam 

So that makes aviation what industry folks call a harder to abate sector where we need a technology that's ready to reduce emissions and scale up now, not in a few decades. 

00:01:17 Isak Kvam 

And that's where sustainable aviation fuel comes in. 

00:01:20 Isak Kvam 

Anjali, can you talk to me about aviation emissions? 

00:01:25 Anjali Bains 

Yeah, thanks, Isaac. 

00:01:26 Anjali Bains 

Happy to be here today. 

00:01:28 Anjali Bains 

So aviation is currently about 2.5% of global climate emissions. 

00:01:32 Anjali Bains 

And with more people around the world taking more flights, it is rising. 

00:01:35 Anjali Bains 

And now, I know that doesn't sound like a big part of our overall climate pie, but as you mentioned, Isaac, this is not a sector that's easy to decarbonize and we only have 25 more years to go. 

00:01:45 Anjali Bains 

So that's why we really are paying attention to it. 

00:01:47 Anjali Bains 

Here in Minnesota, aviation makes up almost 10% of our state's transportation sector, and that share is likely to grow as other modes of moving people and things around decarbonize faster. 

00:01:58 Anjali Bains 

But solutions to reduce climate emissions from flying on the timeline we need to do exist. 

00:02:03 Anjali Bains 

International experts often point to three major solutions. 

00:02:07 Anjali Bains 

The first is making and using sustainable aviation fuel as much as possible for commercial flights over the next 25 years. 

00:02:14 Anjali Bains 

The second solution is improving the efficiency of flying by adjustments to takeoff, landing, and in-flight operations. 

00:02:22 Anjali Bains 

And the third is continuing to develop new aircraft built to run on zero emissions technology, which includes using hydrogen as fuel and using battery electric planes, which can be used for short hail flights if the aircraft is built for it. 

00:02:36 Anjali Bains 

A fun fact I'd like to share is that Minnesota actually has a plan on how to electrify these shorter flights, which goes to show that electric planes are coming in for short hops sooner than we think. 

00:02:47 Anjali Bains 

So let's back up to that first solution, sustainable aviation fuel. 

00:02:51 Anjali Bains 

Sustainable aviation fuel, or SAF, is really a keystone to reducing our aviation emissions at a fast enough rate to meet our climate goals by 2050. 

00:03:00 Anjali Bains 

That's because SAF, as it's called, is designed to be a drop in fuel, meaning it can be used as a direct replacement of conventional fossil fuel-based jet fuel in existing aircraft. 

00:03:10 Anjali Bains 

This is really important to emphasize. 

00:03:12 Anjali Bains 

Modern long-haul aircraft can stay in service for over 20 years, so using climate-friendly drop-in fuels that don't require major modifications to plane design is critically important to reaching net-zero climate goals in the next 24 years. 

00:03:26 Isak Kvam 

If you've been a closer follower of Fresh Energy, you know that we've been advocating for climate smart sustainable aviation fuel for a few years now because it's just such an important climate solution for decarbonizing aviation. 

00:03:37 Isak Kvam 

And of course, aviation is in the transportation sector, which is the highest emitting sector here in Minnesota. 

00:03:44 Isak Kvam 

But some of you maybe aren't as familiar with sustainable aviation fuel. 

00:03:48 Isak Kvam 

So Anjali, can you share exactly what SAF is and why it's important as a climate solution? 

00:03:55 Anjali Bains 

Absolutely. 

00:03:55 Anjali Bains 

And I should mention it took me about a year and a half to really understand the level of staff that I know now and I still understand a smidgen of the actual industry. 

00:04:06 Anjali Bains 

It's very complicated. 

00:04:07 Anjali Bains 

So sustainable aviation fuel, or SAF, is an umbrella term for any alternative jet fuel that emits at least 50% fewer climate emissions than conventional oil-based jet fuel. 

00:04:17 Anjali Bains 

In other words, SAF is at least twice as clean from a climate perspective than the jet fuel most planes use right now. 

00:04:26 Anjali Bains 

There are many, many, many ways to make SAF. 

00:04:29 Anjali Bains 

The inputs to making SAF are called feedstocks in the industry parlance. 

00:04:33 Anjali Bains 

They can be bio-based feedstocks like camelina and pennycrest, used cooking oils, or corn and soy, which are the top two crops grown in Minnesota. 

00:04:42 Anjali Bains 

SAF feedstocks can also include non-biomass feedstocks like green hydrogen and captured carbon dioxide from industrial facilities or from the ambient air. 

00:04:52 Anjali Bains 

Each type of SAF has differing climate benefits, production costs, and potential to scale. 

00:04:58 Isak Kvam 

I think what you just talked about is a good way to explain why it is simultaneously simple to understand and also very difficult to understand because at a high level, it's just a fuel that is at least 50% cleaner. 

00:05:09 Isak Kvam 

But because there are so many different ways to make it, and also that means different costs and different emissions, it can be hard to totally wrap your head around a climate smart way to do it or the best way we can do it. 

00:05:21 Anjali Bains 

Yes, exactly. 

00:05:23 Anjali Bains 

And I think to think about it. 

00:05:24 Isak Kvam 

Perfect. 

00:05:25 Isak Kvam 

Because like there's also different feedstocks and pathways. 

00:05:28 Isak Kvam 

And when we're talking about that, that's always just saying different ways of making SAF. 

00:05:32 Isak Kvam 

So now that we kind of know that they're not all created equal when it comes to climate emissions, what can you tell me about the pathways that you're most excited about? 

00:05:41 Anjali Bains 

Yes. 

00:05:42 Anjali Bains 

So we're finally digging into the core of what Fresh Energy believes is a vital part of any SAF feature, which is 

00:05:48 Anjali Bains 

Drum roll, please. 

00:05:49 Anjali Bains 

Power to liquid. 

00:05:51 Anjali Bains 

Not the most evocative name for what is actually an incredibly important type of SAF, but it is recognized among international experts as being absolutely necessary for achieving our 2050 climate goals. 

00:06:02 Anjali Bains 

So what is power to liquid SAF, also called e-kerosene? 

00:06:05 Anjali Bains 

Power to liquid SAF combines green hydrogen made with renewable electricity with carbon dioxide captured from the air or from industrial processes, think cement production, to make a hydrocarbon that is refined into a jet fuel that has up to 90% fewer climate emissions than traditional jet fuel in lifecycle carbon emissions. 

00:06:26 Isak Kvam 

90% is really the important thing here. 

00:06:27 Isak Kvam 

So this is a SAF pathway that is a jet fuel replacement with much, much lower emissions. 

00:06:33 Anjali Bains 

Yes, exactly, Isaac. 

00:06:35 Anjali Bains 

So that makes Power to Liquid an extremely climate-friendly, sustainable aviation fuel. 

00:06:40 Anjali Bains 

What's more, it has a potential to scale to the high volumes needed to address climate emissions meaningfully from flying. 

00:06:46 Anjali Bains 

I mentioned it was 2.5% of all climate emissions globally, and that does mean a lot of volume of jet fuel is used every day. 

00:06:54 Anjali Bains 

So we really need a type of SAF that can scale to those levels. 

00:06:58 Anjali Bains 

Now, I did say potentially scale intentionally. 

00:07:01 Anjali Bains 

Power to liquid SAF is a much newer technology than other biomass-based SAF pathways, meaning it's early in its commercialization and more expensive to make. 

00:07:11 Anjali Bains 

To compete against conventional jet fuel on price and attract enough investments from private companies to push it further towards cost competitive commercialization, power to liquid will need state and federal policy support alongside private sector commitments and investments. 

00:07:27 Anjali Bains 

That's where we at Fresh Energy come in. 

00:07:29 Anjali Bains 

We want to make sure our state is a leader of the burgeoning staff industry and especially want to make sure we can attract power to liquid producers here, given its importance to global aviation decarbonization in the future. 

00:07:42 Anjali Bains 

If we don't lay the groundwork for power to liquid staff now, it may never take off here as much as in other states, and Minnesota could lose out on a huge economic development opportunity. 

00:07:52 Isak Kvam 

I noticed a little pun with your takeoff there that we need to take off. 

00:07:55 Isak Kvam 

That's great. 

00:07:56 Anjali Bains 

Thank you. 

00:07:57 Isak Kvam 

We have had some good progress in starting that groundwork through policy incentives at the Minnesota legislature, especially this year. 

00:08:04 Isak Kvam 

And Anjali, I know you had a very busy spring at the Capitol. 

00:08:06 Isak Kvam 

Can you tell me about advocating for staff this spring? 

00:08:10 Anjali Bains 

Yeah, so groundwork is luckily starting to be laid down here as this last session proved. 

00:08:14 Anjali Bains 

So in 2024, Minnesota did pass a new SAF production tax credit of $1.50 per gallon to anyone producing or blending SAF in the state. 

00:08:24 Anjali Bains 

However, it was primarily focused on biomass crop-based fuels and didn't clearly allow non-biomass based SAF like power to liquid to qualify for the production tax credit. 

00:08:34 Anjali Bains 

So beginning last year and going into this session, Fresh Energy joined a broad coalition of organizations 

00:08:40 Anjali Bains 

representing environmental, agriculture, forestry, and business interests to refine that 2024 legislation. 

00:08:47 Anjali Bains 

The end result that passed was included many things we wholeheartedly support and believe are necessary to build a responsible sap industry here in our state. 

00:08:57 Anjali Bains 

So those 2026 legislative changes include number one, 

00:09:01 Anjali Bains 

explicitly allowing SAF made by combining carbon dioxide and clean hydrogen to qualify for the tax credit, which opens the door for power to liquid SAF to get the state tax credit. 

00:09:12 Anjali Bains 

Two, stronger environmental guardrails such as disallowing SAF that has outputs used for enhanced oil recovery from qualifying for a state credit. 

00:09:21 Anjali Bains 

Three, additional tax credit funding for SAF with better carbon intensity scores up to additional 50 cents per gallon on top of the baseline $1 

00:09:30 Anjali Bains 

50 cent per gallon credit. 

00:09:32 Anjali Bains 

And carbon intensity scores are really just a measure of how climate friendly staff is. 

00:09:37 Anjali Bains 

So the more climate friendly it is, like power to liquid, the more money it can get from our state tax credit up to an additional 50 cents. 

00:09:44 Anjali Bains 

So for $2 per gallon total credit. 

00:09:47 Anjali Bains 

And for extending the tax credit out to 23.5 while adding some funding for those remaining years. 

00:09:53 Anjali Bains 

Given the longer commercial horizon for power to liquid, this timeline extension was really important to helping make Minnesota more attractive to power to liquid producers who come here since they will need more time to get off the ground and start actually producing SAF that could qualify for a state's tax credit. 

00:10:09 Isak Kvam 

So that means that Minnesota isn't just helping SAF to be produced in Minnesota, but we're now incentivizing power to liquid SAF, which has lower emissions. 

00:10:18 Isak Kvam 

So let's talk a little more about why Minnesota specifically is positioned to become a hub for SAF. 

00:10:24 Isak Kvam 

What is it about Minnesota that makes it such a good fit for sustainable aviation fuel? 

00:10:29 Anjali Bains 

Yeah, great question, Isaac. 

00:10:31 Anjali Bains 

So Minnesota has a number of things in our favor when it comes to building a responsible and expensive SAF industry. 

00:10:36 Anjali Bains 

And SAF, as I mentioned earlier, is really a global industry. 

00:10:39 Anjali Bains 

So we are really competing with other countries as well as other states. 

00:10:43 Anjali Bains 

First of all, we have a lot of possible feedstocks that can be used to make sap. 

00:10:47 Anjali Bains 

Those include winter annual oil seeds like camelina and pennycress, which can be grown on existing farmland during the off season. 

00:10:54 Anjali Bains 

I just want to shout out our friends at the Friends of the Mississippi River, FMR, for elevating this feedstock in particularly during the last couple of legislative session and their really tireless work on helping get the 2026 policy improvements passed. 

00:11:07 Anjali Bains 

We really couldn't have done it without them, so I appreciate them. 

00:11:11 Anjali Bains 

Going back to feedstocks that Minnesota has. 

00:11:13 Anjali Bains 

So Minnesota also has an abundance of other feedstocks like traditional crops like soybean and corn. 

00:11:19 Anjali Bains 

And we also have forest industry whose waste can be used to make SAF. 

00:11:24 Anjali Bains 

Couple that with strong, clean electricity standards that can help support a nascent green hydrogen industry, which I know Brandon will talk more about. 

00:11:32 Anjali Bains 

And that means we have quite a few number of ways to make SAF. 

00:11:36 Anjali Bains 

Secondly, we have strong environmental standards in Minnesota, which means those making SAF here will be making it more sustainably than many other states. 

00:11:45 Anjali Bains 

And given the federal government's current attacks on bedrock environmental laws at the federal level, this is especially important. 

00:11:53 Anjali Bains 

Finally, we have a number of businesses based here that are not only interested in SAF, but are taking steps to demonstrate its use. 

00:11:59 Anjali Bains 

Key among them is Delta Airlines, who operates a major hub at Minneapolis-St. 

00:12:02 Anjali Bains 

Paul International Airport, as well as other companies like Ecolab, Cargill, Xcel Energy, and Airbus, who are participating in what's called the Minnesota SAF Hub organized by Greater MSP, who was a lead organizer in the recently passed Minnesota legislation as well. 

00:12:18 Anjali Bains 

And I mentioned that business commitment to SAF is really key to why success for the SAF industry is really possible here. 

00:12:24 Anjali Bains 

An example of that is actually later this week, the first SAF blending facility in Minnesota will be opening at the Pine Bend Refinery. 

00:12:32 Anjali Bains 

This facility will be able to blend conventional jet fuel with SAF and deliver it for use at MSP, which is a huge first step on our long journey to making our aviation fuels cleaner and more climate friendly. 

00:12:44 Isak Kvam 

That's great. 

00:12:45 Isak Kvam 

Thanks, Anjali. 

00:12:46 Isak Kvam 

All right, Brandon, I'm going to shift our conversation over to you a little bit more to talk about green hydrogen. 

00:12:50 Isak Kvam 

We've been talking about how you can use green hydrogen, which is really using clean electricity and capturing CO2, to make a more sustainable version of sustainable aviation fuel. 

00:13:01 Isak Kvam 

But to really understand more about that, I figured we'd want to talk to you and get the details all about green hydrogen. 

00:13:08 Isak Kvam 

Can you tell us about what green hydrogen is, how we use it, and how it's made? 

00:13:14 Brandon Isakson 

Yeah, absolutely, Isaac. 

00:13:16 Brandon Isakson 

So green hydrogen is certainly a key component, key feedstock in this process that we're talking about here. 

00:13:22 Brandon Isakson 

But if you don't mind, I might kind of work backward in my answer a little bit and kind of reiterate some of what Anjali just described about the power to liquid pathway and then kind of talk about green hydrogen's role in that process. 

00:13:35 Brandon Isakson 

So 

00:13:36 Brandon Isakson 

At its core, jet fuel is primarily made-up of just hydrogen and carbon. 

00:13:42 Brandon Isakson 

And in the case of power to liquid SAF production, those two ingredients are independently generated or captured in gas form, so hydrogen gas and CO2, and then combined and processed to make that synthetic fuel. 

00:13:59 Brandon Isakson 

And there's a couple different approaches to actually synthesizing and reacting those ingredients once you've combined them. 

00:14:07 Brandon Isakson 

The classic power to liquid pathway is known as the Fischer-Tropsch method. 

00:14:11 Brandon Isakson 

But there's another similar method that's coming up a little bit more in conversation. 

00:14:16 Brandon Isakson 

And there's a couple of different production facilities looking at this, which is the methanol to jet pathway as well. 

00:14:23 Brandon Isakson 

So very similar process, but it actually includes methanol as an intermediary product in there. 

00:14:29 Brandon Isakson 

But again, at the core, those building block ingredients are 

00:14:34 Brandon Isakson 

your green hydrogen and your carbon. 

00:14:37 Brandon Isakson 

And so with those feedstocks, you know, Isaac, you'd ask specifically about green hydrogen. 

00:14:43 Brandon Isakson 

So hydrogen can be made in a variety of ways. 

00:14:47 Brandon Isakson 

In many cases from an industrial use perspective, we see hydrogen made through the steam methane reforming process, which relies heavily on fossil fuels. 

00:14:59 Brandon Isakson 

Green hydrogen, on the other hand, is made using renewable electricity in a process called electrolysis. 

00:15:06 Brandon Isakson 

That's generally a straightforward concept where electricity is passed through water in a way that splits the hydrogen and oxygen, producing a hydrogen gas and oxygen gas output. 

00:15:19 Brandon Isakson 

So again, it's a simple process in theory, but it is energy intensive. 

00:15:22 Brandon Isakson 

So it's critical that that production is paired with appropriate renewable generation. 

00:15:27 Isak Kvam 

Think a lot of what you're talking about is giving me flashbacks to taking organic chemistry in college and having to really get into those. 

00:15:33 Isak Kvam 

So thank you for throwing me back there. 

00:15:37 Isak Kvam 

But if what Brandon is describing sounds familiar to listeners, aside from organic 

00:15:42 Isak Kvam 

that you may have taken. 

00:15:44 Isak Kvam 

It's also because Anjali and I recently published a blog post on the fresh energy website about how you can use green hydrogen to produce SAF. 

00:15:51 Isak Kvam 

So that's a really helpful read if folks want to learn more about the topic. 

00:15:56 Brandon Isakson 

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. 

00:15:58 Brandon Isakson 

And 

00:15:59 Brandon Isakson 

And so talked about the hydrogen component there, that other building block being the CO2. 

00:16:04 Brandon Isakson 

We need to capture that some way in order to bring it into this reaction process. 

00:16:09 Brandon Isakson 

And today, the simplest and most common approach is to capture that from an existing point source. 

00:16:15 Brandon Isakson 

So Anjali mentioned earlier, oftentimes that might be paired with a concrete facility. 

00:16:20 Brandon Isakson 

And just think of other industrial CO2 emitters. 

00:16:24 Brandon Isakson 

Other ones would be steel or ethanol facilities that we could look at for capturing that CO2. 

00:16:31 Brandon Isakson 

But we are seeing direct air capture as a growing technology as well in this space. 

00:16:37 Brandon Isakson 

And as the name implies there, it's a matter of pulling CO2 directly out of the air. 

00:16:42 Brandon Isakson 

And so as we work to reduce industrial emissions across the board, direct air capture seems to be a promising pathway because theoretically, the industrial emissions will be reduced and less of a sustainable pathway in a good way. 

00:16:58 Brandon Isakson 

But like electrolysis, though, direct air capture is also very energy intensive. 

00:17:06 Brandon Isakson 

and expensive. 

00:17:07 Brandon Isakson 

So anyway, once these gases are all produced, combined, and reacted, that end product are synthetic aviation fuel and byproducts. 

00:17:18 Brandon Isakson 

But the ultimate target being that ESAF or the power to liquid SAF has hydrocarbon chains that are chemically identical to fossil fuel or bio-based jet fuels. 

00:17:31 Brandon Isakson 

meaning that, as Anjali touched on before, they can serve as a drop in fuel product. 

00:17:37 Brandon Isakson 

That means that they can blend cleanly into traditional jet fuels. 

00:17:42 Isak Kvam 

I think of what a lot of what you're describing, Brandon, is what makes fresh energy kind of special is we have different teams working on different parts of the decarbonization process. 

00:17:50 Isak Kvam 

And so Anjali represents transportation. 

00:17:52 Isak Kvam 

We're talking about sustainable aviation fuel. 

00:17:55 Isak Kvam 

But you representing heavy industry is really interesting here in the late 2020s because there's a lot of cool processes going on where exciting things are happening with industrial processes and using captured CO2 from some of them to use for SAF to make a cleaner jet fuel replacement. 

00:18:12 Isak Kvam 

There's just like a lot of really interesting things happening in the sector. 

00:18:15 Isak Kvam 

So it's really cool to learn more about. 

00:18:19 Isak Kvam 

Can you tell me a little bit about, is this already happening in places? 

00:18:23 Isak Kvam 

Are planes already being powered by SAF made with green hydrogen? 

00:18:28 Brandon Isakson 

Yes, with a caveat, and Anjali touched on this earlier as well. 

00:18:33 Brandon Isakson 

What we've seen has really been through small demonstration programs and very early commercialization efforts. 

00:18:40 Brandon Isakson 

It's nowhere near as mature as some of the bio-based SAF pathways. 

00:18:45 Brandon Isakson 

and other blending opportunities. 

00:18:47 Brandon Isakson 

So there are a handful of power to liquid SAF producers that are coming online, but virtually zero are fully operational at a large commercial scale. 

00:18:58 Brandon Isakson 

But the space is filling up quickly and there are programs that are moving the needle and getting folks excited about getting into this technology and the production space. 

00:19:08 Brandon Isakson 

And of course, Anjali touched on quite a few of the great things we're doing here in Minnesota. 

00:19:15 Brandon Isakson 

But if we're looking elsewhere about what other things we could think about here beyond production tax credits, and those are important incentive programs. 

00:19:24 Brandon Isakson 

But something that I think stands out to me in Europe is the Refuel EU aviation program. 

00:19:32 Brandon Isakson 

And that program is more on the regulatory side, and it actually sets very specific blending requirements. 

00:19:39 Brandon Isakson 

for aviation fuel within EU airports. 

00:19:43 Brandon Isakson 

And those requirements increase over time. 

00:19:45 Brandon Isakson 

So for SAF in general, EU airports need to increase from a 2% share of SAF in their aviation fuel in 2025 to a 70% share by 2050. 

00:19:58 Brandon Isakson 

So a massive incorporation of blending for SAF over those years. 

00:20:03 Brandon Isakson 

But they have actually also carved out a specific requirement for power to liquid SAF as well. 

00:20:09 Brandon Isakson 

And as Anjali touched on, much less mature, so the targets are a lot more modest. 

00:20:16 Brandon Isakson 

We're targeting 1.2% of all aviation fuels being produced through the power to jet, power to liquid process by 2030. 

00:20:26 Brandon Isakson 

But by 2050, the intention is to have a 35% share of power to liquid in all aviation fuels. 

00:20:35 Brandon Isakson 

So 

00:20:36 Brandon Isakson 

Airlines are required to buy those power to liquid fuels regardless of the existence of cheaper biofuel alternatives, which is really important. 

00:20:45 Brandon Isakson 

Those types of programs are critical for building this market from scratch and through creating a predictable runway for producers, they'll enable scaling that will ultimately also help to bring costs down. 

00:20:57 Brandon Isakson 

Assuming these policies and similar market building policies like the production tax tax credits. 

00:21:04 Brandon Isakson 

Assuming that those remain durable. 

00:21:06 Brandon Isakson 

it creates that pathway that early adopters can depend on. 

00:21:09 Brandon Isakson 

So naturally, we're seeing a lot of companies popping up in Europe with policies like I just talked about. 

00:21:17 Brandon Isakson 

Notable examples would be in Germany and Norway. 

00:21:20 Brandon Isakson 

There's a few larger name companies, Inneritech, Atmosphere and Norske Efuel. 

00:21:27 Brandon Isakson 

But we're also seeing some 

00:21:29 Brandon Isakson 

producers popping up in the US with Infinium and a company called 12 being a couple of the early movers in that space as well. 

00:21:37 Brandon Isakson 

And we should certainly be keeping an eye on other companies in the adjacent space. 

00:21:42 Brandon Isakson 

So there's a company called Sostera that's working currently on refining the direct air capture technology rather than the fuel production side. 

00:21:51 Brandon Isakson 

But they'll also be important players in the future of the industry. 

00:21:56 Brandon Isakson 

And I would be remiss if I didn't 

00:21:59 Brandon Isakson 

flip back to the green hydrogen production in Minnesota and the couple different pathways that we could talk about there. 

00:22:07 Brandon Isakson 

One in particular where we stand out as a leader is with our University of Morris or University of Minnesota Morris West Central and Research Research and Outreach Center, where the research team there has been creating exciting wind to ammonia pilot projects for years and hydrogen green hydrogen 

00:22:28 Brandon Isakson 

plays a critical first step in that process. 

00:22:31 Brandon Isakson 

So using the wind turbines on site there, they're creating green hydrogen through electrolysis and then ultimately synthesizing that to create ammonia products. 

00:22:42 Brandon Isakson 

So it's really exciting work that we've been doing and leading here in Minnesota for a while. 

00:22:48 Anjali Bains 

Yeah, and I think Brandon really hit on a really important part of policy and the interplay is here in Minnesota really focused on trying to bring the cost of supply down. 

00:22:58 Anjali Bains 

But you have markets like in Europe, which are really putting the demand side policy in place. 

00:23:02 Anjali Bains 

So regulations that are going to give the demand to help support the supply continuing to be made here in Minnesota. 

00:23:08 Anjali Bains 

So it's really interesting. 

00:23:10 Anjali Bains 

Again, this is a global policy and there's so many interplays between other markets and what's happening in Minnesota, which is very unique compared to some other work we do here in the state. 

00:23:19 Isak Kvam 

And I do think it is, I really can't say enough about what University of Minnesota Morris is doing. 

00:23:24 Isak Kvam 

I grew up outside of there on a farm and they do some of the most interesting clean energy pilot projects around and it's very, very cool to have them in Minnesota, in rural Minnesota. 

00:23:34 Isak Kvam 

It's really neat to see. 

00:23:37 Isak Kvam 

So it's important for folks to know that green hydrogen is a broad climate technology. 

00:23:42 Isak Kvam 

So while it is a pathway for SAF, green hydrogen is also a climate solution that's helping us decarbonize a lot of other things in our economy too. 

00:23:51 Isak Kvam 

And Brandon, I know you've been talking a lot about green hydrogen, so can you tell us about how it's being used for other sources and sectors as well? 

00:23:59 Brandon Isakson 

Yeah, absolutely. 

00:24:01 Brandon Isakson 

From the industry side, 

00:24:04 Brandon Isakson 

We talk about it a lot for decarbonization efforts for industry from a clean fuel alternative perspective and some of the other chemical properties that it has. 

00:24:16 Brandon Isakson 

For instance, in steel production, it could serve as an exciting pathway as a clean fuel alternative, but it is also used as a reducing agent for its chemical properties, not just its combustion properties. 

00:24:31 Brandon Isakson 

So there are limited numbers of chemicals and gases that can be produced to be used in those sorts of ways. 

00:24:39 Brandon Isakson 

And hydrogen is one that we need to be careful with because it seems like such a promising solution, but we still have a long pathway to understand how we can produce it at scale and how to do it green, of course. 

00:24:53 Brandon Isakson 

So 

00:24:55 Brandon Isakson 

That's a part of the challenge. 

00:24:57 Brandon Isakson 

It's such an exciting opportunity. 

00:25:00 Brandon Isakson 

We'd love to use it everywhere. 

00:25:02 Brandon Isakson 

Some other spaces, as I touched on, would be ammonia production. 

00:25:06 Brandon Isakson 

So there's been some really interesting opportunities within the state here in the last couple of years looking toward creating distributed green ammonia. 

00:25:18 Brandon Isakson 

And we've talked about this in a couple of other spaces, a couple of different webinars and whatnot. 

00:25:24 Brandon Isakson 

there uh is no local ammonia production in the state here currently we import all of our ammonia based fertilizers from uh facilities that use steam methane reforming uh for their hydrogen production and ultimate ammonia synthesis and then we import those products here to the state spending upwards of a billion dollars a year within our farming communities to import that and so there's a big initiative to 

00:25:51 Brandon Isakson 

create more wind to ammonia generation with green hydrogen as that intermediary to be able to do that to leverage a lot of curtailed wind opportunities here in the state and to create those products locally and to create a circular economy of wealth within that farming within our farming communities here so there's a lot of other opportunities but those are the two that really rise to the top. 

00:26:18 Isak Kvam 

I think we're going to have to do a whole podcast episode about green ammonia and fertilizer because it's a really interesting topic. 

00:26:25 Isak Kvam 

I think it reminds me a lot of how the history of Minnesota's electricity sector a little bit, where we have historically imported lots of fossil fuels like coal to burn to generate electricity. 

00:26:36 Isak Kvam 

Now we have cleaner sources like wind and solar, and we're increasingly generating more of our own clean electricity in state. 

00:26:44 Isak Kvam 

Now we kind of have the technology to do the same thing to create fertilizer. 

00:26:48 Isak Kvam 

We no longer have to import it from states or mostly states away. 

00:26:53 Isak Kvam 

We can instead maybe make it here with clean electricity, which has a big impact for farmers because that is fertilizer is a big climate source, but it's also a big expense for farmers in Minnesota too. 

00:27:04 Isak Kvam 

So the extent that we can build it here in Minnesota is a really exciting opportunity. 

00:27:09 Brandon Isakson 

Yeah. 

00:27:09 Brandon Isakson 

And in the last year or two, we've seen a lot of volatility in those 

00:27:13 Brandon Isakson 

pricing in the pricing of ammonia fertilizer products as well. 

00:27:17 Brandon Isakson 

So there's definitely like an energy independence and a local manufacturing opportunity that pair really well here. 

00:27:27 Isak Kvam 

I think I'm I'm queuing us up for a future. 

00:27:30 Anjali Bains 

And I might jump in here, too. 

00:27:33 Anjali Bains 

you know, I think 

00:27:34 Anjali Bains 

As much as we talk about the best use cases of green hydrogen, it might be also good to touch on the use cases we don't think is the best use of what Brandon has really clearly described is a, right now it's costly to make, there's not a lot of volume of it. 

00:27:49 Anjali Bains 

So the use cases we really care about at fresh energy are those hard to abate sectors, the sustainable aviation fuel, because flying a plane, I know Isaac, you put this in blog, flying a plane takes a lot of energy and it's really hard to do. 

00:28:01 Anjali Bains 

Same with reducing carbon emissions from our industrial 

00:28:04 Anjali Bains 

processes and agriculture. 

00:28:07 Anjali Bains 

What we don't think green hydrogen right now is the best use case for is things that we have alternatives like electrification. 

00:28:14 Anjali Bains 

And I know our friends over at buildings department has spent a lot of time trying to push forward electrification opportunities so that renewable natural gas and other hydrogen uses aren't the things supplanting what we already have, which is electric heat pumps and other electrification options. 

00:28:31 Anjali Bains 

And similarly on the transportation side, 

00:28:33 Anjali Bains 

you know there was this sort of this head-to-head competition between battery electric trucks and hydrogen fuel trucks and it's really become clear in the last few years that electric battery trucks are actually being developed and commercialized and and that is a better use case for our on-road transportation so as we talk about the best uses for green hydrogen knowing where we should be prioritizing is also really important. 

00:28:57 Isak Kvam 

That's a really good note I think at a high level 

00:29:00 Isak Kvam 

The highest level you can get with climate solutions is saying that we need to electrify everything by replacing fossil fuels with a battery charged with clean electricity. 

00:29:09 Isak Kvam 

Some things like long haul aviation you can't do that with. 

00:29:12 Isak Kvam 

So that's where green hydrogen comes in. 

00:29:15 Isak Kvam 

So we're getting near the end of our podcast episode now, so I just want to zoom out. 

00:29:19 Isak Kvam 

Why does getting this right matter for Minnesota? 

00:29:24 Anjali Bains 

Yeah, I can take that first. 

00:29:25 Anjali Bains 

So sustainable aviation fuel is a global endeavor, as we've all talked about here, and it has a huge potential for positive economic growth for communities throughout our state, rural and more locally in urban centers. 

00:29:37 Anjali Bains 

Done right, Minnesota made staff will not only help us meet our 2050 climate goals and beyond, we still have to meet those goals beyond 2050. 

00:29:45 Anjali Bains 

It will also protect our water and soil quality and bring new climate jobs to our state. 

00:29:52 Brandon Isakson 

Yeah, that's great. 

00:29:53 Brandon Isakson 

And I'll just kind of dovetail from that on the idea that SAF is that near-term tool for cleaner skies and green hydrogen is what makes that the cleanest version possible. 

00:30:05 Brandon Isakson 

And Minnesota just strengthened our policy to make both scale together and we have continued opportunities to leverage those in multiple different avenues. 

00:30:17 Isak Kvam 

Anjali, Brandon, thank you both so much for walking us through this. 

00:30:20 Isak Kvam 

It's really exciting to see Minnesota positioned to lead on both SAF and green hydrogen. 

00:30:25 Isak Kvam 

And I know this is work that you're both going to be pushing forward for quite a while yet. 

00:30:31 Anjali Bains 

Awesome. 

00:30:32 Anjali Bains 

Thanks, Isaac. 

00:30:32 Brandon Isakson 

Absolutely. 

00:30:33 Brandon Isakson 

Yeah, thank you. 

00:30:35 Isak Kvam 

Thank you for subscribing to Decarbonize, the Clean Energy Podcast from Fresh Energy. 

00:30:40 Isak Kvam 

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00:30:47 Isak Kvam 

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00:30:53 Isak Kvam 

Thank you to the band Palm Psalm for providing our theme song DGAF off their album O2Haka. 

00:31:00 Isak Kvam 

Get the latest from the band at palmsalm.com. 

00:31:03 Isak Kvam 

Thank you for listening.