Electric boats are making waves, find out why with Shift2Electric's Jukka Kukkonen

Transportation is electrifying, from electric vehicles on our roadways to electric boats on our waterways and everything in between. Minnesotans are looking to go electric, but are electric boats practical in the Land of 10,000 Lakes? 

Tune in to Fresh Energy's conversation with Shift2Electric’s Jukka Kukkonen for a conversation about electric boats, the emissions impacts of traditional boating, and to get a look at how electric watercrafts are being used around the world, including examples of large ships, recreational boats, and smaller boats for everyday use. 

A few videos are played throughout the presentation, you can view them here: 

Candela: https://youtu.be/b7lH1_92tuk?si=T61WMUlNFprNsNNw&t=1310

Electric Hydrofoil: https://youtu.be/b7lH1_92tuk?si=whyhQkyJ6lWcP9XM&t=1838

ForSea: https://youtu.be/b7lH1_92tuk?si=zfA2_Rys9KOu7E-y&t=2093

Fresh Energy’s mission is to shape and drive bold policy solutions to achieve equitable carbon-neutral economies. Together we are working toward a vision of a just, prosperous, and resilient future powered by a shared commitment to a carbon-neutral economy. Learn about Fresh Energy's work and our bold "Vision 2030: Fresh Energy's Strategic Framework" at our website fresh-energy.org.


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Transcript

Jo Olson: [00:00:10] Hello and welcome to Decarbonize the Clean Energy Podcast from Fresh Energy. Fresh Energy is a Minnesota nonprofit working to speed our state's transition to a clean energy economy. My name is Jo Olson. I'm the chief communications officer here at Fresh Energy. And today we are going to be talking about electric boats. And if they're practical for Minnesota. The land of 10,000 lakes. Now, in a few short seconds here, I'll be sharing a recording from our recent webinar on the subject with guest expert Jukka Kukkonen from Shift to Electric. The webinar was moderated by Fresh Energy's Isak Kvam with guests Anjali Bains and Nick Hague. A few videos do get played during the webinar, and if you tap into the details section of this podcast on your podcast app, you can stream the videos from there if you'd like to see the boats in action. All right. With that, let's dive in.

Isak Kvam: [00:01:06] Hello, everyone, and welcome to Fresh Energy's webinar. Electric boats are making Waves, find out why this webinar is hosted by Fresh Energy. And we also have Jukka Kukkonen from shift two electric joining us today, who some of you may remember from our EV webinar back in January. If you missed that one, it's up on our YouTube channel and our podcast feed, and I highly recommend checking it out. My name is Isak Kvam. My pronouns are he, him, and I am the senior writer and editor on the communications team at Fresh Energy. So glad you're here. If you've just joined us, um, feel free to introduce yourself in the chat with your name, where you're tuning in from, and what your favorite lake is in Minnesota. Um, just a few housekeeping things. Before we kind of kick off today's webinar, we have gotten a few questions about if this webinar will be recorded. And the answer is yes. You will be getting an email from me either later today or possibly tomorrow morning with a link to the recording on our YouTube channel. And then I will also be posting the audio from today's webinar onto the Fresh Energy podcast, Decarbonize the Clean Energy Podcast. You can find that wherever you like to listen to your podcasts.

Isak Kvam: [00:02:15] Um, we'll also have about ten minutes at the end of our of our webinar today to go through a Q&A. But you can you can submit your own question at any time during today's webinar. Just use the handy little Q&A button at the bottom of your screen, and we'll keep an eye on that throughout the entire webinar. But we'll get to that in the last ten minutes. So some of you might be new to Fresh Energy. Welcome. Fresh Energy has been working on clean energy and climate policy issues here in Minnesota and throughout the Midwest for over 30 years. We're changing the world through bold policy solutions that move us to a just, carbon-freee future. And we're helping everyone who lives here end dependence on fossil fuels, electrify their lives, and build a healthy, clean energy economy where everybody can thrive. Before we get started, I do want to share that Fresh Energy has some exciting news this week. We are thrilled to announce that the search for our new Chief Executive Officer has concluded with the Board of Directors unanimously voting to hire Doctor Margaret Cherne-Hendrick. If you're familiar with Fresh Energy, you might know that Margaret has been on staff with us for seven years and has served as a thought leader, accomplished fundraiser and strategic policy expert.

Isak Kvam: [00:03:28] Margaret transitioned from her previous role as our deputy CEO into her new role as CEO. This past Tuesday, April 15th and we are very, very excited for her in her new role. Okay, here's a quick look at what we've got planned for our webinar today. We're going to kick things off with a quick five minute overview of Fresh Energy's transportation policy work. And then we're going to dive into the world of electric boats for about 40 minutes with Jukka. And finally, we'll finish up with a Q&A session to answer all of your questions at the end of today's webinar. Here are our speakers today. You've already met me. My name is Isak Kvam. I'm the senior writer and editor on Fresh Energy Communications team, and I am joined by Jukka Kukkonen, our clean transportation consultant, as well as Anjali Bains, our Managing Director of transportation. And Nick Hague, our senior associate of electric vehicles. And now I am going to turn things over to Anjali, who is going to walk us through the exciting transportation policy work underway at Fresh Energy. Anjali. Take it away.

Anjali Bains: [00:04:32] Awesome. Thanks so much, Isak. So as Isak mentioned, my name is Anjali Bains. I lead the newest transportation team here at Fresh Energy. We did launch our standalone transportation team as a department, um, earlier this year, so we're very excited to be here. So next slide. Great. So I'm going to quickly go over all that we do here at Fresh Energy. Our bread and butter for many years has been electrifying our personal vehicles and making sure that folks who want an EV can access at home charging, regardless of if they live in a single family home or a multi-family building or are a renter. We also work on bigger vehicles like school buses and transit buses, primarily through our work with the coalition for Clean Transportation. And this work is really focused so that even if you don't have a personal vehicle or don't want to own a personal vehicle, you can still enjoy the benefits of zero emission transportation. We also work a lot with utilities, and that work encompasses all of what I just mentioned. In addition to helping make sure that our electricity rates that we're using to charge our vehicles are as affordable as possible and are designed in a way that also benefits the electric grid and all ratepayers. And finally, we do do some off road transportation work with sustainable aviation fuel. That's kind of the hot topic in the aviation space and will be one of the key ways we can actually decarbonize how we fly.

Anjali Bains: [00:05:54] Um, I won't get into it here. There was a webinar in December for folks if they want to find out more about that. But we do need to decarbonize all parts of our transportation sector, including aviation, including marine, which is why we're so excited for this webinar. So next slide. And decarbonize all modes we must. This is the latest greenhouse gas data from the Pollution Control Agency. And it shows pretty clearly that we are not on track to meet our state's climate goals in transportation. You can also see there that marine emissions, which is highlighted under underlined with the arrow, is a small slice of our overall transportation sector emissions, but we will have to address it over the next 25 years. If we as a state, want to meet our net zero carbon goals by 2050. So on a policy level, knowing about the latest in zero emissions marine technology is very helpful and it's also easy to forget that even here in Minnesota, we do have a shipping hub via the Port of Duluth up on Lake Superior. Um, so this is a really actually relevant topic for us. And we do also send cargo down the Mississippi River from Minnesota as well. And of course, behind beyond that sort of heavy duty shipping that we do, there's a recreational side as well. And I'll hand it over to my colleague Nick to share more there.

Nick Hague: [00:07:14] Yeah. Thanks, Anjali. Um, next slide please. Yeah. Thank you. We have, uh, I'm really excited to learn more about electric boats, uh, in this webinar from Jukka. Uh, because I love getting out on the water. And Minnesotans in general love our lakes. Um, and we love our boats. Uh, we probably have the most boats per capita of any state. And I think it's really important that we, uh, move the technology forward to in order to keep the lakes, uh, as clean and enjoyable as possible, not just for us, but for future generations as well. And I think electric boats are going to be a really important part of the path to a cleaner future for not only our waterways, but also our air in the form of the emissions. So yeah, really excited to learn more from Jukka and I'll pass it on to him.

Jukka Kukkonen: [00:08:00] All right. Thank you Isak. Thanks, Anjali. And thanks, Nick for a nice opening of the thing. And good morning everyone from my side too. I'll share my screen here so you can, uh, see my slides there. I hope that I shared the right screen here. Just making sure that that you guys can see the see the right screen. Okay. Very, very good. So, um, my name is Jukka Kukkonen I'm chief EV educator and strategist for Shift to Electric and also work with Fresh Energy in all these good things that we have already mentioned. So so that's good. And today we are going to talk about electric watercrafts as mentioned here. And since we started to talk about what's our favorite lake. Um, I have to go a little bit outside of Minnesota for that. Sorry about it, but, um, my favorite lake is, uh, Lake Saimaa in Finland, where this picture is from. This is my hometown, Savonlinna, in eastern side of Finland, which is actually built on three islands. And, uh, Lake Saimaa region is, is, uh, is not just a small lake. It's actually a combination of, of many, many lakes. There are hundreds of miles of waterways, uh, crisscrossing every back and forth. I think there's calculated that like, there's 14,000, uh, islands just in this, uh, thing. So it's it's practically archipelago area in a lakeside, and it's one of the biggest in Europe for it.

Jukka Kukkonen: [00:09:32] So, um, I grew up right by the, by the lake and, um, and, of course, lakes have been used as waterways for transportation for centuries. Um, thousands of years, of course, and nowadays mostly for recreational use, but still some transportation moving, moving there. But just wanted to share that, um, with you. So first we go back to why, uh, we actually have that in our title. Why is this happening? Well, transportation electrification is happening both in land and in, uh, in lakes or in waterways. And the reason for that is that we just have better technology now. Uh, we have used internal combustion engine for 100, over 100 years now. And, um, it's an excellent machine that it has provided us good work for that time. But the problem with it is it is not very efficient. We take the energy that is in gasoline and transform it into propulsion power by using small explosions inside the engine there. And that might be fun. Explosions might be one way to do things, but it's never the most efficient way. And therefore we have a lot of heat losses and mechanical losses in that process. So internal combustion engines are between 15 to 25% efficient. So not very efficient at all. Whereas when we compare that to electric motors we are now have just one moving part, the rotor there and our efficiency is 85 to 95%.

Jukka Kukkonen: [00:11:09] So we are four times more efficient with electric drivetrain compared to traditional drivetrain. And if something is four times more efficient than the old technology, it'll take over. No question about it. Um, give you an example of of, for example, lighting. We use the incandescent lights and then we have the LED light lighting technology. And when we talk about LED lighting technology, years ago, people were like, no, I'm never going to move into LED lighting. And then nowadays see where we are. Everybody's using LED lighting. So it's the same thing that happens with transportation. But the process is a little slower because it's a much bigger investment. So if this these models, this is what we use EVs. Um, it's very similar in both. So here's an outboard motor example. Here on the left you can see internal combustion engine, uh version of outboard motor. Pretty complicated machine in many ways. And then on the right side you can see, uh, electric outboard motor. And they're in many of them. The motor is actually down, uh, on the propeller shaft. So there's very little, uh, losses there in the process. Some of them have motors, uh, motors located up higher. And then there's just a some gearing there, but still much less complicated. Much, much, much less complicated than traditional internal combustion engine variant. We've already talked a little bit about reasons for electrification, but I'll go more, more deeper into this one.

Jukka Kukkonen: [00:12:41] So one of the reasons, of course, is quietness. Um, it is totally different experience to enjoy boating when you don't have to listen to the noise pollution from, uh, the engine there. Uh, you can actually talk with your friends much easily there, and you can enjoy the nature totally differently when you don't have have that noise pollution right by their lower energy consumption. We already talked about that. Um, lower costs. I'll show you some videos here. And there are some comparisons there that are pretty telling of how much lower the costs are when you're using less energy. Your costs are also going to be lower. You have cleaner air because you don't have, uh, local emissions at all from it and also cleaner water. And this is something that we might not think when we are thinking about this, um, this in detail, but in internal combustion engine outboard motors. The exhaust gas is actually run through the water. First it comes through the propeller shaft. So it's kind of like, uh, it's just shifted shifted through the water first. And good thing is that it that there's less emissions to the air. Bad thing is that there's more emissions to the water. And here's the big in the picture. You can see a comparison there. E propulsion that is one of the, um, probably one of the leading small, um, electric motor manufacturers in the world right now.

Jukka Kukkonen: [00:14:09] They're using some of their exports, a comparison where they have internal combustion engine, motor and electric motor in these tanks, and they have run them for some time there. And you can see the clear difference there. Um, if, if you understand how much emissions are we putting into the lakes and rivers and, uh, sea by using these it's pretty bad. And the other thing that we have to remember is that These models don't have the same kind of emission controls that we are used to, for example, with our cars. There's much less of that in here. So the exhaust that is coming out of the motors is much nastier. And that's that's the outcome. So it's not very good. What I like to say with electric motors is that it's much, much nicer boating because you don't have the noise. You don't have the emissions and you don't leave a rainbow trail behind you. So that's that's how I describe this. Slow or no maintenance? Much lower maintenance needs in these. If you own an outboard motor, traditional outboard motor, you know how much maintenance is required there. So that's a big plus with electric motors. Ease of use. Um, I'll show you some examples of that. Reliable. Always that don't have to spend time on on on fixing the units the same way as you do with the other ones.

Jukka Kukkonen: [00:15:31] And then rules. Compliance. There are there are many way Anyway, lake's already in Minnesota, where you can take internal combustion engines in the lakes. So there you could just bring your own electric motor and just bring the boat and just enjoy the boating there without disturbing the nature or the neighbors, uh, with your boating. And then there's advanced controls also with these, uh, units. Five years ago, uh, 6 or 7 years ago, there was very there were very few electric motors out there. Just a couple of different manufacturers had some motors out there. But this thing is just taking off like like nothing else. There's so many new manufacturers every year bringing new motors into into the marketplace. They that's lowering the cost quite a bit. And it also provides totally different options for people because we started the small ones. But nowadays you can have even a bigger electric motors out there. So this is really cool to see. We are kind of in the same situation with the electric watercrafts, where we were with electric cars ten years ago when we had just some manufacturers just bringing a few few units in the market. But other manufacturers are taking notice and things are developing, and they'll bring down the prices to on all of these units. Also, the battery technology has improved, of course, a lot with electric cars.

Jukka Kukkonen: [00:17:02] And now we are starting to have more and more boat specific batteries available in the marketplace. Um, some of the smaller ones, even even bigger ones, if you're doing a doing a big, big manufacturing or bigger boat, uh, conversion, stuff like that. Um, but I, for example, for my cruising boat that I I'll show you a little later, um, give you an example of what the price drop has been in recent, recent years. Two years ago when I bought the battery for my boat. I think I paid like €2,500 for it because I built it in Finland this year. I could buy double the size of batteries for that boat for €3,000. So it's almost 50% drop in just two years. So it's amazing how fast the battery prices are dropping right now for these use cases. Um, so that that of course makes this much more affordable for for people to do this and get to electrifying their boats. There are also manufacturers that do a full conversions, uh, to the boats. So here's for example, Eboy that has that is has operations in Norway and also in us. And they do these integrations to different boat models. And if you happen to have a PA 22 you can also get it an electric. Um, you just have to talk to Evo and say, all right, I would like to have electric drivetrain on this one.

Jukka Kukkonen: [00:18:30] Sure, and they'll provide you the whole kit for it. So that's that's good to see. Um, here are a couple of boats, um, in Norway uh, from that that are evo, uh, conversions there. And um, here's another example of, of, uh, Electric Boat there, arc sport. Uh, I just wanted to take this one because it's a wakeboard. So that's for those who, who, who know you can do wakesurfing with with the boat. So you have a wakeboard behind. You can do a boarding behind it because it provides you a big wake. Uh, so that's the main reason for this boat. But look at that. Like 500 horsepower of power horsepower there on power side, 226 kilowatt hour battery pack. Huge battery pack. So it's a it's a very highly, uh, built, uh, machine. And, of course, it's not necessarily very cheap, but these are the first iterations that we get. But if you want really cool toys, There's one for you. Um, I would highly recommend people just go on Google, for example. Um, the Ark boats and you can find different videos of people testing it and showing and talking about the technology. Um, you can go very deep in all of that. There's also electric, um, jet skis. And Tiger Motors is a Canadian manufacturer that makes electric jet skis, and they're available for purchase.

Jukka Kukkonen: [00:19:54] So, um, if you want to learn more about that, go to Tiger Motors. Com and you can see what they have available right now. There's another electric jet boat, uh, jet ski, uh, manufacturer Viva. This is actually a Finnish company. And then this is the area that I want to talk with you a little more about. When we are driving our cars on the road and we are going highway speeds, aerodynamic losses are the biggest, uh, losses that we have on our driving. So they consume most energy at that point. Then if we move the boats in addition to that, we also are trying to slice through the water. And as we know, water is very dense. So hydrodynamic losses are very, very big on boats. And that is exactly the reason why boating, uh, we're using a lot of energy using a lot of gasoline to do it. And, uh, it's not very energy efficient at all. Um, when you think about it as a mode of transportation, uh, especially for recreation and when you're trying to go fast. But the good news is that there are some cool tricks how to solve this. And I'll show you a little bit how that can be done. So we can make the boats fly. Here's a video of, uh, from Candela, that is a Swedish boat manufacturer. And take a look at this.

Video Narrator: [00:21:28] This is in Baltic Sea, outside of Sweden and are winter conditions. So you can see it's pretty rough through there. Um, but when they increase the speed a little bit more there, you can see the magic happening. The boat starts to fly and you can see a comparison to traditional boat there that still keeps hitting you pretty hard there. And your boat is just totally smooth on top of the surface. And this drops the.

Video Narrator: [00:22:03] Energy.

Video Narrator: [00:22:03] Consumption by 80%. So it has a huge impact on the energy consumption.

Jukka Kukkonen: [00:22:14] Since this is so cool technology I have another video. This one to learn a little bit more about it. So let's watch this one. Here's a here's a little longer trip that they did with the boat and share their experiences about it.

Video Narrator: [00:22:29] A very common question is, of course, how far can it get with the boat? You can go all the way to another country. Actually, today we're trying to break a new world record. We're going to go from Stockholm to Mariehamn. Öland. It's roughly 75 nautical miles one way. And we're going to go there and back with an electric boat in one day, with consisting infrastructure in terms of charging.

Video Narrator: [00:22:56] So fun fact we had to stop and refuel our gasoline chase boat. The candela has continued, but we had to fill it up with gas because it uses two liters per nautical mile. We only have 80l here.

Video Narrator: [00:23:08] We need we need more.

Video Narrator: [00:23:22] We're at the Capella Choir. We traveled roughly 45 nautical miles from Stockholm, and we're now charging at 40kW DC here in Capella, preparing to go over the ocean to Orlando. We're using a chem power charger, a DC charger that we borrowed from Chem Power. Thank you very much for that. It's using the existing dock infrastructure. It's a 63 amp cabinet here, and this will take us roughly one hour 20 minutes to charge the boat. So one of the most common questions we get is where do you charge the boat? There's actually a lot of charging infrastructure in many places because most harbors have a three phase outlet. So you can charge your boat at 11kW, at least enough to replenish the battery in a few hours. You can use the boat pretty much as any other regular gasoline boat. There's always somewhere to plug it in. Candela C8 Polestar Powered has a range of 57 nautical miles at 22 knots. That's 2 to 3 times longer range than any other electric power boat on the market, and it's due to the hydrofoils that lift up the hull above the surface, thereby reducing energy consumption. We arrived safely here in Mariehamn, Aland, after about one hour, 20 minutes across the sea, and we arrived with 25% left of the battery. And now we're gonna stay here and charge and meet some people for a few hours, and then head back to Stockholm.

Video Narrator: [00:24:56] Right now we're in Mariehamn, and here we're charging from a 16 amp, three phase outlet, which means that we charge at around 11kW. But the boat has the potential to charge 130kW, which means that we could have a charging time from 10% to 80% in roughly 30 minutes. And with this connection we have right now, if we would fully charge the battery from zero, it's around seven hours of charging time. Now we charge to 90% here in Mariehamn and we're gonna go back to Kapellskar. It's 36 nautical miles and will take us around 1.5 hour.

Video Narrator: [00:25:29] Today we show that it's possible to go really far with an electric boat. And this boat, the C8. We use this as a development platform to be able to continue our development into our bigger ferries like the P-12. We see a really bright future for our public transport sector, and we think that electric boats will be a big part of the transportation in the future.

Video Narrator: [00:26:00] From Mariehamn to Kapellskar was very, very smooth and now we're back here with 10% talk and it's time to charge up for our final leg down to Frihamnen.

Video Narrator: [00:26:13] When we're summing up the costs for this trip were used around 230 kilowatt hours of electricity, which amounts to €4,050 on the open spot market. Now, the gasoline boat has used approximately fuel for €750, so that's quite a large difference. €50 or €750. That's the difference between a foiling electric boat and a gasoline boat. We're back in Stockholm. We've docked the boats and we made it all the way to Orland and back. So it's the world's first electric boat journey from Stockholm to Orland. We stopped and charged three times during the day. We stopped two times at Kapellskar and obviously in Belgium, and that was it. We actually had to refuel the chase boat six times during this trip. So can you go far in an electric boat? Yes you can.

Jukka Kukkonen: [00:27:18] All right. Well, that was a good, good example of how that works. And, uh, Candela is by far not the only manufacturer. There are plenty of different other manufacturers that are working, uh, providing the hydrofoil technology, the boats. And here's another example of Navier. Um, I would highly recommend people go Google Navier hydrofoil electric boats. Uh, they talk a lot about technology. There's great videos about it. But I totally think that this technology is going to be brought big time into the boats. Because if your energy consumption, again is just a fifth of what it would be otherwise. Um, this hydrofoil technology is so, so crucial in, in, in improving our experience of boating. Um, not just because of the lower energy consumption, but think about it. It's a smooth ride. You don't have to be going up and down and hitting the every way that comes there. So, um, I'm thinking this will be a big thing. And how does this work then? Um, here's an example of that. So here's a jet ski that has has, uh, this hydrofoil technology, just so you understand, on the left side, you can see the jet ski that is close to the shoreline. So you have those masts up and the hydrofoil wing, uh, that is underneath. There is also both motor and the wing is, is is up high when you go to the shoreline.

Jukka Kukkonen: [00:28:46] But then when you go in the deeper water you drop the motor down lower and you drop the hydrofoil wing. So there's a wing between those two front masts there. And that's the thing that lifts you up. And because, um, water is very dense, you don't need to have a huge wing. Um, it's a different thing when you think about the airplanes, you have to have a big wing because the air is less dense, but with the water. Water is much denser, so then the wing size is also smaller. And that's why we can do the technology like this again. We will see a lot of this in the future. Let's go back to Stockholm. I mean, as a as a Finnish person, it's hard for me to sometimes give credit to Swedes, but I have to give them credit. They are doing really good things in this, this space here. So those of you who have who have visited Stockholm know that it's in archipelago area, um, on Baltic Sea there. Um, and uh, the interesting thing about Stockholm is that they are actually using ferries a lot for their public transportation. Here's a map of their ferry network in Stockholm. And they are also starting to electrify this ferry network. And the next video is all about that, too. Uh, let's take a look at that.

Video Narrator: [00:30:01] Stockholm is a city built on islands, and its waterways were once its original transport routes, but today we're barely using them. The problem is that the current diesel vessels are inefficient, costly to run, and heavily polluting, even though just a small percentage of commuters travel by boat. The city's aging fleet consumes more fossil fuels than all other forms of public transport in Stockholm combined.

Video Narrator: [00:30:24] The Candela P-12 is the world's first electric hydrofoiling ferry with a capacity of 30 people. The hydrofoils means around 12 knots. The boat will start to lift above the surface and around 16 knots you're completely above the surface. It actually reduces the energy consumption by about 80%. It also means that we create no wake. It won't disturb the shoreline in a way that a traditional ferry does. This means we can get a speed exemption for much faster commute.

Video Narrator: [00:30:53] Candela has been working on this project for, what, about four years now. So we're super excited to have our first commercial boat in operation. This route is the first time that we're going to take on public passengers. It's a test to check how the electric hydrofoil ships are received by the public transportation sector.

Video Narrator: [00:31:13] The region of Stockholm has chosen to deploy the P-12 on a pilot route between Ekerö, the fastest growing island suburb, and the city centre, on this 15 kilometre stretch. The P-12 will cut travel times in half for commuters thanks to the speed exemption in the city centre.

Video Narrator: [00:31:31] Aikido is quite close to Stockholm, but it's quite poorly connected in the sense that there's a lot of traffic on the roads. The current best alternative today by public transport is taking approximately an hour. So with our 30 minute trip today, we proved that it's possible to have a much faster connection.

Video Narrator: [00:31:49] P12 Feri is 11.99m, meaning that it's designed to be crewed by one person. This decreases operating costs, particularly since an advantage of a 30% ferry is that you can have a fleet of multiple boats, allowing for more frequent departures.

Video Narrator: [00:32:04] Very quickly, the operators recover their initial investment because they have much lower energy consumption and much lower staff costs, and also because they can utilize their ships at a higher rate. They're running their ships full and they can take payments for every single seat on board.

Video Narrator: [00:32:22] One big advantage with the P12 is that it can be used without a significant infrastructure upgrade. We don't need a megawatt charger. We can use existing electric car infrastructure to charge our ferry.

Video Narrator: [00:32:33] The Candela P12 marks a turning point, a future where our waterways once again become the veins of Stockholms life, offering a clean, efficient and sustainable way to connect people between the city's islands. The journey starts here.

Jukka Kukkonen: [00:32:53] All right, well, think about that. Wouldn't that be a nice commute in the morning, you wake up in your nice, nice house in Decorah and then, uh, bike to the shoreline to hop on one of those ferries and it takes you downtown. Uh, I think it would be pretty cool. Rather than sitting in a traffic, uh, definitely choose choose that option every time. So that was a good example of how you can do that. Um, uh, for, for small ferries. But let's look at a little bit bigger ones next here we'll move, um, a bit more west from, from Stockholm. They're going to be, uh, the between Denmark and Sweden. They're, um, just north of Copenhagen. Helsingor is there. And the other side is Helsingborg on the Swedish side. And there they are actually using bigger ferries for transportation. Uh, and of course, these are all electric two. And these ferries carry 7.4 million passengers annually and 1.5 million vehicles. So that's a very, uh, major operation that they do every year. And here are some pictures of the US charting on the left side there. And then the batteries in the boat there. And I have a short video here that shows how the charting is done. So I'll show you the beginning part of this, because it's kind of cool to see this.

Video Narrator: [00:34:26] All the way until Helsingborg. Yeah yeah yeah.

Jukka Kukkonen: [00:34:44] So you can see the robotic arm bringing the charging connector to the boat there. Place it there and the system locks it in place.

Jukka Kukkonen: [00:34:56] And then the charging starts And. Here you can see the charts in power. Then on the next slide here 9000kW. That's nine megawatts of power for charging. That's a big, big, big connection. But you need it. It's not a small boat. That's why you need to have a have a system that does it and have a very high, high voltage, high, high big current cabling there. And then if you notice there's a two spots that you could actually have. If it's a low tide you can you can put it on the upper spot there. So that's how the charging works for some of these bigger ferries. All right. So now you know when you go to Nordic countries, go take take a ferry over from Denmark to Sweden. And then when you get to Stockholm, go check out the local ferries there too. All right. Here's a latest development. Almost breaking news in the last two weeks, uh, International Maritime Organization actually made a deal. This is an international organization that is that works on all the maritime operations, um, all the shipping. And and they are now starting to work on lowering the global shipping emissions, uh, to much, much, much lower than 2050 level.

Jukka Kukkonen: [00:36:19] Of course, they could be even more aggressive, but, uh, but that's that's what they're working on right now. And how do we start this process? Um, of course, if you have a, uh, ocean, uh, shipping there, going from Europe to us, um, or America or back and forth between different continents, that's really hard to electrify at first, but a big portion of our transportation on on seas also happens more in a local area, kind of like when we are talking about heavy, medium and heavy duty trucks on roads. 87% of that transportation of of uh stuff is happens in in less than 100 mile range. The same kind of thing happens in sees that when you have a big containers that they are brought somewhere, there's a lot of local traffic and we can actually start to electrify that local traffic. And here's a pilot of that one, a short video that shows you more of how that's done. Uh, now in first cases, let's go to the actual video.

Video Narrator: [00:37:21] We have climbing gyms all over the country, so we use Google Meet to connect with our staff. The automated note taking feature of Gemini has been really valuable. Saves me so much time. We're never going back.

Video Narrator: [00:37:36] Dubbed the Tesla of the sees, this fully electrified, fully autonomous cargo ship is already making waves. How does it work? Where will it sail and why is it already helping save lives inland? Join us today for a sneak peek inside the world's first zero emission cargo ship at First Sight Norwegian container ship, the Yara Birkeland, looks like a potential game changer in the battle against carbon emissions. Oceangoing freight presently emits about a billion tonnes of CO2 a year, more than all but the five biggest nation states. If at least some of that traffic could be electrified, the theory goes, the world might breathe a little easier. Yara Birkeland was developed as a joint venture between Norwegian fertilizer giant Yara International and Kongsberg Gruppen, an engineering firm specializing in civilian and military guidance systems. The hull was launched from Vard Shipyard in Romania in February 2020, and shipped up to Norway's Vard Brevik shipyard, to be fitted out with her futuristic innards. She's not quite the first autonomous ship to be clear. A Finnish car ferry launched in 2018 claims that accolade. But Yara Birkeland is a zero emission commercial vessel, and the juice to fire up her gigantic seven megawatt hour battery, supplied by Swiss technology firm Leclanché, will come piped in from the Norwegian grid, which derives most of its energy from clean hydroelectric plants.

Video Narrator: [00:38:53] The ship's onboard battery, by the way, holds 1000 times the capacity of a domestic electric vehicle. So what will she actually be carrying? A little over 100 containers, which isn't much in the scheme of things. The biggest ships presently haul 24,000 at around 20 knots in speed, twice as fast as Yara Birkeland. But as a proof of concept, Yara Birkeland isn't a bad start. Yara International commissioned the vessel to run between three ports in southern Norway Heroya, Brevik and Larvik, shipping raw materials and finished fertilizers that are presently transported over land. Moving this same freight by road, the company says, currently necessitates 40,000 fully laden truck journeys a year. The Yara Birkeland will eliminate all those emissions and tiresome refuelling stops at a stroke, in turn making local roads quieter and safer for Norwegian citizens. Her maximum voyage length for now between Heroya and Larvik, is only about 30 nautical miles. She'll run on two rotatable azipod pods, each producing 900kW of power and a pair of electric thrusters, each producing 700kW. The Yara Birkeland is able to sense what's around on Norway's hectic waterways through a complex suite of radar, lidar nautical AIS. That's automatic identification system.

Jukka Kukkonen: [00:40:06] All right. That was electric. Now they're talking about the automotive other portion of that. So you can watch the video sometime yourself. Let's move on. But you just saw an example of how this can be done for bigger ships too. So. Then we'll go in the recreational side of things. Um, and smaller boats. So here's a E propulsion spirit 1.0 uh, motor that I actually bought five years ago for, for our boats in Finland. And there's a comparison that to the Mercury six, uh, horsepower old, old 70s, uh, engine or motor there by it. And I actually like this a lot, um, this motor, because it's so useful in so many ways. Um, it provides a display that tells you exactly how much power you're using, how much, uh, drive time you still have with it. It has an integrated lithium ion battery that, uh, can be dropped in the water and still floats. Have I tried? Unfortunately I have. Um, I can tell you more later, but let's move on. And the cool thing about it is you can. You can charge it with home power. You can just take the battery with you and just charge it somewhere if you want to. Or you could even use solar panels to charge it, and you can carry it anywhere.

Jukka Kukkonen: [00:41:23] It's £20. The base, the motor itself, and then the battery is another £20, so you can easily hold it wherever you want. You can take the motor with you and just, uh, take it to another boat. Uh, we have used it mostly for with our with our robot here. And here's my son, uh, just driving the boat here. So I'll show you a video of this. As you can hear, it's really, really noisy. So there's absolutely nothing that you can hear about it that that is really, really cool. And it moves the robot quite well there. Um, you can go like that for, for an hour easily. And if you drop it to just a more cruising speed, you can go for for five, six hours with, with that boat. Um, nowadays that motor actually is used mostly uh, by our, our, by my relatives in all, all different ways, especially with this, uh, dock piece of dock that, that has a pontoon dock. And they use this to go for fishing. Um, we take, take the whole family with them. And, uh, also this sometimes put a, um, breakfast or lunch, uh, on, on the table there, and then they go in the middle of the lake to enjoy that, uh, with that and just take the electric motor, uh, to move it there.

Jukka Kukkonen: [00:42:44] But again, because you can move it so easily between different, uh, boats. It's it's very useful, uh, for multiple, multiple purposes. Here's my second project that I did then. So that one has that motor has been used for five. Years. Still works perfectly fine. No issues with it whatsoever. Uh, which I'm a little surprised that it has lasted so long, but seems to be just fine. So based on that, and I, um, I bought, uh, 1974, uh, boat, um, fiberglass boat two years ago in summer. And then I put there a little bigger six kilowatt motor. And, um, in this one, the controls are easy. They are just kind of like a USB cord. Uh, that that that is there to the controls. Very easy to set up for the boat and then battery I put where the gas tank, uh, used to be down there and, uh, I have a short video of how this works.

Jukka Kukkonen: [00:43:36] All right, we're cruising, doing the first cruise with our electric boat here. And right now we are going with 700W, and the place is Boat is totally quiet, as you can hear. I'm here with my dad and there you can see the motor. And let's crank up the power. And this is 6000W. I'm pretty pleased with this. It's not a speed boat, but excellent for cruising.

Jukka Kukkonen: [00:44:26] So I'm really happy how that boat turned out. Um, for the first part, when I was just cruising with the 700W, you can go, uh, like eight hours with that speed, uh, on that boat, roughly. And then if you go all out, then it's a little under an hour. You can do that. So. But usually I just go slower and just enjoy the scenery and, and and the company there. But I like it a lot. A couple of words about the technology. If you're thinking about doing a convergence to your own boat. First of all, think about what's the required power level that you need in kilowatts. Um, then, uh, you have to think about what kind of cage. Why are you you will be using and that has to do with voltage. Um, because voltage time amperage is what's. So you can always calculate how much amperage you need in certain voltage to get to the required power level that where you want to. And sometimes you might be, might need to crank up the voltage a little higher. Choose a motor that is higher voltage to get into the right power level, so that your cable thickness doesn't come become too big. So that's the one thing to think about there. Um, of course you think about the runtime requirements, uh, at certain power levels that you need acceptable C rates. C rate is is what we talk about when we talk about the batteries. Uh, that's actually a ratio between the power that we're using to the capacity of the, of the battery. And the basic idea there is that I would recommend trying to stay around one C levels on, on, um, if you're for continuous power, for example, in my boat, uh, that's a six kilowatt, um, motor that I have, and I have a five kilowatt hour battery pack.

Jukka Kukkonen: [00:46:12] So it's a little over one C that I'm using there, but it's still acceptable, uh, for that. So then you think about, of course, battery capacity, and then you think about what's the charger power that you need for charging it. Um, but, uh, we definitely do another couple of our, uh, discussion about these topics, but just wanted to kind of like, point out the first things to think about when you when you think about this conversion. Here are a couple of examples from our local, uh, Electric Boat owners Dave Moe has electric solar pontoon boat in siren, Wisconsin, where he actually charges the boat with the solar panels that are on top of his pontoon boat, and he just cruises around the lake and enjoys it that way. And he doesn't necessarily even have to plug it in because the, um, electric, uh, the solar panels will provide enough power to charge his batteries when he's not using a boat, and even when he's using the boat at the same time. Then here's another example of electric pure high field 380 GT by Jason Willard there. Um, and he uses this one mostly to take his, uh, family out on the lake and pull a tube or something like that behind the boat there, uh, to just have some summer fun on the lake.

Jukka Kukkonen: [00:47:31] And then about charging. Basic idea is that you can usually charge these by using a small normal outlet like here's my boat in Finland, just plugged into the normal outlet there. So I rented a spot at the local Marina there. And most of the Marina docks have electricity because, uh, pretty much all the bigger, uh, boats need some kind of shore power. So there's outlets available, and I'm just using that to charge my battery. It easily charges overnight full. And, uh, Marina owner asked me like, well, how much energy will will it use? And I was like, well, I did a calculation if I, if I, if I would dry that battery all the way to zero every, every day, uh, for a month, it was like 20 bucks or something like that. Electricity. And he was like, okay, let's forget that part. It's it's not an issue there for, for electricity consumption. So again, it's so much cheaper to drive. Uh, so that's that. And then if of course, if we have a bigger boats, um, as you saw in some of the videos they were selling, you can actually just use a normal, um, electric vehicle charging infrastructure to do that. So there's no need for new infrastructure. We have already technology available to do that even for our in our higher power. So we're taking advantage of what has happened with the EVs and using that in, uh, our electric watercraft too. And that was my presentation part here. So let's go to Q&A. I will stop sharing here my slides. Excellent.

Isak Kvam: [00:49:08] That was very interesting. I've been excited to learn about electric boats and I feel like it was it was so cool to see both all the different technology from both small to big, and then to also see the hydrofoils that are elevating above the water. And now I want an electric water ski too. I feel like there's I learned a lot. That was a lot of fun. It'll be good to jump into the Q&A session here.

Jukka Kukkonen: [00:49:30] And we are just in the beginning of this journey. We are just have the first things out here. And that's so cool about this, is that that we already have this kind of cool things to, to look at and how we can all make this happen.

Isak Kvam: [00:49:44] Yeah, I'm excited to see. And it was neat to see too, how you said the cost had come down so much just in the past few years too. Yeah, I'm sure that, you know, as it becomes more mainstream, sort of like electric vehicles, we're going to see more models, we'll see costs come down and it'll just be fun to try out. Yeah, I do have a quick slide I want to share before we get into the Q&A session. Um, so I just want to give a quick reminder to folks that you can sign up for updates from Fresh Energy at any time. Just go to fresh. Org slash subscribe. And that way you can stay up to date with our many, many events on the calendar, like today's webinar. Um, but I do want folks to go check it out today because this is, I think, the busiest I've seen our calendar maybe ever. Uh, in my two years here at Fresh Energy, we have a lot of exciting events coming up. Um, and two very notable ones is we are having our lagers and legislation at Urban Growler on May 21st. This is a great opportunity to meet us at Urban Growler, gather around with other clean energy advocates, the Fresh Energy Network, and then also Fresh Energy staff, and we'll just be hanging out for a few hours. We'll be talking about clean energy and the 2025 legislative session. So join us for that. And then later this summer, we're doing the Fresh Frolic, an all electric party at the Theodore Wirth Park trailhead on July 15th. Um, both of these I highly encourage folks to sign up for. And as always, you can always find these events and more on the events page of our website, which is just at the very top of our website menu. Okay, let's get into the Q&A. Jukka, we have some questions. Um, I think we have quite a few questions just about the Electric Boat portion. So the first question I have is, are there any manufacturers here in Minnesota that are making electric boats or motors, or are they mostly being made in other areas right now?

Jukka Kukkonen: [00:51:37] Um, I think I haven't heard of the Boat Motors manufacturers. We had a boat manufacturer here previously, and I think there are a couple of entities that are right now working on, on doing some of the conversions. So I think there will be more and more of those coming. Um, I know at least one company, um, uh, the Saint Croix watercraft in Stillwater is selling some of the electric boat motors. So check out, uh, those that that's at least one one company. But I'm sure we'll see much more of those, uh, coming up.

Isak Kvam: [00:52:11] Question. Oh. Go ahead.

Anjali Bains: [00:52:12] Sorry. I can share in the chat. So there is a Minnesota connection to, um, an upcoming electric boat manufacturers. So, uh, Blue Innovations Group set in Tampa, Florida, but has a Minnesota. The person from Minnesota. So I'll just share that in the chat. Um, so nothing that I know of here, but there's kind of a fun story there.

Jukka Kukkonen: [00:52:34] And someone else just shared something on on the, on there. And I definitely don't know all the, all the players in the marketplace. So if you know something, just please share. That's that's very cool to see.

Isak Kvam: [00:52:44] I have a note from Lee that, uh, there's a brand called Duffy Electric Boats that are really popular in Southern California, and they say they're not that fast, but they do have a long history. And they're curious if Duffy boats are on the lakes in Minnesota or if there's a future for boats like that. Not sure if you know of Duffy. Um, but that sounds like another one that folks could look at if they're curious.

Jukka Kukkonen: [00:53:04] That's. That's cool.

Anjali Bains: [00:53:06] Yeah. And actually on Duffy Boats, I, we were I was in the research. If anyone wants to check out electric boats. Uh, Duffy Electric Shores is a group that's set up in Minnetonka and Cleveland, and they provide access to electric boat rentals. Um, and they use Duffy boats, so I'll put that in the chat. But that's in case anyone wants to check that out. I'm hoping to check that out this summer just to see what an electric boat is like.

Isak Kvam: [00:53:32] I think we might have to hold like some kind of a Fresh Energy electric boat meet and greet, like try out some different things or something that could be really fun. Um, we have a question. Jukka, do you have a way to kind of approximate horsepower to kilowatts for a conversion? Because I know, you know, most boats come in horsepower, but it sounds like all the electric boats you were talking about come in different sizes of kilowatts. How can you kind of is there an easy conversion to keep track of that.

Jukka Kukkonen: [00:53:59] Direct conversion rate? If I remember right is 1.36. So one kilowatt is 1.36 horsepower. Um, if I remember right, that roughly, roughly that at least. Um, but electric motors also provide more torque. So it's a little different kind of a torque curve that you have with electric motors. Um, so, so it's not one on one conversion in that way.

Isak Kvam: [00:54:26] Do they make many electric motors that are large enough for tubing and water skiing and things like that in Minnesota?

Jukka Kukkonen: [00:54:33] There starts to be more and more of the bigger ones. Bigger ones are still decent. I mean, a bit more expensive. And the batteries, of course, you need much more batteries because you have to get the right power levels. So right now, if you think about it, I think the most economical options are definitely something that you're just cruising around the lake. You have a pontoon boat that you're just using just to enjoy the lakeside nature and your friends and so forth. That's the best use for electrification right now. Um, if you have way too much money in your in your pocket and you want to burn it, there are really, really cool options for you too. So that that's the other thing. But if I would have that's why, for example, I built just in my conversion just a little bit slower boat. I'm not trying to get fast to anywhere. I'm just trying to enjoy the day there. And what I see also in, in Finland is that there are some travel boats, Bolts that are used a lot in Finland, and they're not trying to get fast anywhere. They are enjoying the thing and traveling from one place to another, and then you're going to the next harbor that provides you charging there and stay overnight there, and then continue to the next place. And those kind of use cases are the first ones to electrify.

Isak Kvam: [00:55:44] Um, do you have any information about the winter storage of batteries? I know with, you know, normal gas boats, you just take the 12 volt out and store it inside for the winter. Is it kind of the same thing for electric boats and their bigger batteries?

Jukka Kukkonen: [00:55:56] You can you can store the batteries outside. That's not an issue. You just have to have to be aware of it. But actually it's interesting because many of the boat manufacturers are saying that if you have a bigger battery capacity in in there in the boat, um, you can actually put it in use during the winter time. Uh, you can use it as a storage battery for your house. So then you have a stationary storage for your house outside of the summer season. The summer season you're using using it in a boat. But then in a winter time, you might be parking it right by your house. You connect it to your your electricity there with, with the right kind of connection. And then you can have a storage system there. Same way as we have, uh, starting to see vehicle to Crete and vehicle to home setups for electric cars and electric trucks. You could use your electric boat as a vehicle to home setup, both to home, uh, setup.

Isak Kvam: [00:56:51] That's cool to hear about. I think we have some resources on the Fresh Energy blog, a little bit about how as we electrify things and as the grid modernizes, there's all these cool new uses like that for like vehicle to grid, home to grid, boat to home applications. That's interesting.

Anjali Bains: [00:57:06] Are there other winterization benefits for electric? I know I don't own a boat, but for those who do own a boat, um, curious sort of. What other activities that having an electric boat might be easier for?

Jukka Kukkonen: [00:57:18] Well, um, if you have a motor, you have to do a winterization for it every fall, and that's practically. You'll go through the maintenance schedule of it. What you need to you need to replace the oil, um, in the boat to make sure that there's no water or anything mixed there and all of that. So it is, uh, decently costly, uh, operation every fall, when you do that and the springtime, you have to do some checkup checkups to electric motor itself doesn't need anything. You just take it out of the water and that's fine. It doesn't care. Um, so it's much simpler, uh, procedure.

Isak Kvam: [00:57:54] And that's a big benefit for me. I have kind of a family boat that we only use once or twice a year, and I'm very interested in an electric motor. Just because you don't have to do that maintenance or worry about, you know, is it going to start? I haven't used it for a year or something like that. It just seems a lot easier to maintain. Um, with that, I do want to be careful of folks's time. Um, I'm going to we still have some questions, so I'm going to tack on about five minutes here for folks that want to start. Um, but I do want to be conscious of people that have to go. I do want to say thank you for joining us today. Um, I'll be sending an email out later today or tomorrow morning with a link to the webinar recording. We'll have that on YouTube, and we'll also be posting the audio to our podcast decarbonised. So if you have to go now, thank you for joining us. Um, but I'm going to join join into our next question here. Um, I know that you were talking about how other countries are electrifying their ferries and their shipping industries. So not really recreational boats, but more industry and transportation. Is there much of that happening in North America or the US, or is a lot of this happening in Europe right now?

Jukka Kukkonen: [00:59:03] Nordic countries have clearly been, um, first movers in this space that they have been they have been doing quite a bit in here. But I don't see a reason why we shouldn't see some of that happening in the US, too. I think we that will happen happen here too. Uh, when the uh. It's just so clear. Uh, when you think about the savings that you can have or time that the same way as we are going to medium and heavy duty trucking will be also going into the commercial boating, um, having having those. And if you think about the technology itself, electric drivetrains is not a new thing in even bigger ferries because they have used that a lot. They might be motors right now running most of the big, big ships there. Uh, and then there's just the generators. Diesel engines are running generators that are actually driving the motors so that that part is already there. But now the next part is just replacing the diesel generators or diesel diesel engines there with, uh, batteries. And I think we are starting to see more and more of a hybrid setups to where you might have a good sized batteries there, and the diesel engines are turned off, for example, when you're starting to get closer to the harbor. So then small, shorter, uh, routes are run with the battery. And then when you go in the ocean, then you turn on the diesel and run it there. So that, of course, decreases the local emissions. If you think about the bigger cities that have huge harbors, the emissions that are coming from that harbor area is just enormous. Um, think about Los Angeles, for example, a huge, huge impact from the maritime emissions in that area.

Anjali Bains: [01:00:46] And there was. So this isn't necessarily the boat craft, but the Inflation Reduction Act did include about I want to say three. 3 billion for um, port electrification. So you know, there is emissions coming from the boat, but there's also emissions coming from the drayage trucks that are taking the containers off the shipping ships. So there is that understanding that ports are a source of these emissions, and we should try to be addressing it. And then in the US, uh, Washington state is going towards a the hybrid electric ferry like you just mentioned. Jukka. They did just sent. They just delayed it to be after the World Cup, because they'll have to take some of those ferries off for a long time to make the transition. So they're going to do it after 2026. But I'll put that in the chat for anyone who wants to follow what's happening in the US.

Isak Kvam: [01:01:32] And interesting how that will evolve in Minnesota, because, you know, we have shipping near Duluth and on Lake Superior and then also the Mississippi River. So it'll be interesting. I mean, Minnesota has a lot of shipping that we do here too.

Jukka Kukkonen: [01:01:43] So yeah, and those container handling equipment, for example, at the harbors, that's electrifying really fast because that's easy to electrify. Very, very easy. So we will be seeing quite a bit of operations, uh, in that side.

Isak Kvam: [01:01:59] I have one more question here. And it's back to recreational boats and someone's wondering how heavy the batteries are typically in recreational boats. I know it depends on the size you get, but in general how heavy they are. And then also if there's any safety hazards with using a battery in the water and if you need to take any waterproofing precautions.

Jukka Kukkonen: [01:02:18] Well, um, it totally depends on what size of the battery of course you have there. As I said, for the small, uh, motor that I have there, the integrated battery is £20. But then when you go into the bigger ones, I'm just thinking about what my battery in my, uh, cruising boat weighs. Probably close to, I think, £120, something like that. So it starts to be it starts to weigh some, but, uh, but the motor itself is, is lighter than internal combustion engine motor would be. Um, so there's a little bit of comparison that way. Um, and then when it comes to the safety, um, they're very safe. Um, there's no, um, potential difference between the ground and the battery or water to the battery. So you can't get shocked by just touching a one lead or something like that. So it's from from usability perspective, they are very safe. And we already have a lot of when you you the only time you have a potential different difference between ground and the boat is when you're plugged in at the shoreline. But that's the same thing with all the other boats that have been plugged in. So no difference difference in there. So I don't think safety is a huge issue there. Of course, all of those batteries that are used in boat operations have to be well sealed. So they can they have to be able to take some water because they'll be water splashing around. And that's, that's a that's a thing to check out when you're choosing the right battery system for your boat.

Isak Kvam: [01:03:52] Thanks, Jukka. Uh, with that, I'm going to close up today's webinar. I want to thank Jukka, Anjali, and Nick for joining us on today's webinar about electric boats and sharing all this information. If anyone wants to get in contact with any of us, you can see our names and our email addresses are right there on your screen, and these are also available on our staff web page as well if you need to get in contact with us. And lastly, thank you everyone who joined us today and stuck with us through the FAQ section here. I hope you all learned a lot about electric boats. I know I certainly did, and maybe you're interested in going all electric at your lake this summer. I know I would love to be doing some water skiing behind an electric boat in the future, so maybe keep an eye out for that. Maybe we'll be sharing more about that in the future. Um, as I said before, I'll be sending an email to all registrants later this afternoon with a link to the YouTube video with a recording of today's webinar. And we'll also be putting it on our podcast, Decarbonize the Clean Energy Podcast, available wherever you listen to podcasts. Thank you so much for joining us and have a great rest of your day.

Jo Olson: [01:04:59] Thank you for subscribing. To Decarbonize the Clean Energy Podcast from Fresh Energy and listening to this latest episode, you can stay up to date on Fresh Energy's work at Fresh Energy's or follow us on social media. You can support our work to drive bold policy solutions to achieve equitable, carbon neutral economies in Minnesota and beyond by checking out our website where you'll get the latest news from Fresh Energy. And you can also make a donation there. If you live in Minnesota, you might be interested to know we have an event coming up on May 21st. It's called Loggers and Legislation and it will be at Urban Growler this year in Saint Paul. Thank you to the band Palm Psalms for providing our theme song. It was called off of their album O2 haka. Get the latest from the band at Palm Psalms. Thanks for tuning in.