A conversation with Dr. Ayana Elizabeth Johnson at Fresh Energy's Benefit Breakfast

On Wednesday, October 9, 2024, over 800 guests gathered to attend Fresh Energy's Annual Benefit Breakfast. That morning, we were joined by incredible special guest, Dr. Ayana Elizabeth Johnson, a marine biologist, policy expert, and New York Times bestselling author, who sat down with Fresh Energy's Margaret Cherne-Hendrick to talk about how we can imagine and build a clean energy future together. This is the live recording of that conversation.

Ayana’s newly released book, “What If We Get It Right?: Visions of Climate Futures,” takes a radical new lens to the climate crisis and presents a joyfully pragmatic view of the future.

Check out the recording of the full Benefit Breakfast here.

Fresh Energy’s mission is to shape and drive bold policy solutions to achieve equitable carbon-neutral economies. Together we are working toward a vision of a just, prosperous, and resilient future powered by a shared commitment to a carbon-neutral economy. Learn about Fresh Energy's work and our bold "Vision 2030: Fresh Energy's Strategic Framework" at our website fresh-energy.org.


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Transcript

Jo Olson: [00:00:11] Hello and welcome to Decarbonize the Clean Energy Podcast from Fresh Energy. Fresh energy is a Minnesota nonprofit working to speed our state's transition to a clean energy economy. My name is Joe Olson. I'm the lead director of communications and engagement with Fresh Energy. And today we're sharing a really special conversation between New York Times best-selling author and marine biologist doctor Ayana Elizabeth Johnson and Fresh Energy's doctor Margaret Cherney-Hendrick. If you weren't at the breakfast and hey, even if you were, this conversation is a real treat and we hope you enjoy it. Thank you to the band Palm Psalms for providing our theme song. It's called DJ AF. It's off of their album Zero to Hakka. Get the latest from the band at palm.com dot com. All right, now dim the lights, close your eyes and imagine you're in a huge banquet hall in downtown Saint Paul's River center with 800 other guests at Fresh Energy's benefit breakfast. Are you ready? Let's go.

Dr. Ayana Elizabeth Johnson: [00:01:21] Good morning. Good morning. Hi.

Margaret Cherne-Hendrick: [00:01:26] Thank you, Justin, for that great introduction. And welcome, Ayanna to Minnesota. We are delighted to have you in conversation here. And I have to admit, I have been following your book tour, which has been very high excitement, and you've been sharing the stage with some pretty impressive folks lately. So Stacey Abrams at Climate Week, Jason Sudeikis with your Climate variety show, just to name two. And while it may be early in the morning, still I think I have a lot of confidence that this Minnesota crew here today is going to be able to match that energy. So what do we say? Are we excited for the conversation today? Good.

Dr. Ayana Elizabeth Johnson: [00:02:07] I'm like very deeply not a morning person. And I'm just completely astounded by the amount of energy in this room at this hour. I mean, I can see why, though, after listening to those last few talks. I mean, there's a lot to be excited about here.

Margaret Cherne-Hendrick: [00:02:21] There is. There is. Well, if you're ready, let's dive in.

Dr. Ayana Elizabeth Johnson: [00:02:25] Let's do it.

Margaret Cherne-Hendrick: [00:02:26] So you're a thought leader. You have a real gift for bringing folks together. From Bill McKibben to Rihana Gunn-wright to Jigar Shah. Those last two have been keynote speakers at this event, by the way, to discuss the climate crisis and the path to our clean energy future. And you did this all in your ambitious new book, and through this book, you're taking a radical new lens to the climate crisis. What if we get it right? I wonder if you could just start by giving us kind of an overview here, why you think it's important to take this different perspective on the climate crisis and what really compelled you to write this book now?

Dr. Ayana Elizabeth Johnson: [00:03:00] I guess the fact that you would categorize it as radical is the reason why I think it's needed, right? Like it's radical to focus on solutions in a world where we're just constantly presented with the problem, as the mayor was mentioning, right? I mean, I think for me, I was like, we don't need another book about the problem. We don't need more documentaries about the problem. I think it's reckless for the news media to cover climate impacts without also, in the same breath, talking about what we could do to make things better because, you know, we have the solutions we need, right? If anything that we've just seen from this 20, 20, 2030 vision, it's a matter of like how swiftly and how justly we can achieve these goals. And I have never been in a room that's gotten so much applause for building codes. So I'm really excited to be with you. That is a remarkable vibe I've not yet experienced. I always say building codes and people just are like, mhm. Mhm. Um, and I think even just hearing geothermal in this room, my house is on geothermal. But that's not exciting as an individual. It's the, the district heating. The city's embracing it. The state's embracing it, the energy goals. Um so I think to me the more we can focus on what's possible, I actually don't I don't consider myself an optimist, which surprises a lot of people. Um, I mean, the book title is what if We Get it right? Question mark.

Dr. Ayana Elizabeth Johnson: [00:04:39] Like, I don't know if we're going to get it right, but I know that we could. And I think sometimes the more honest answer, the more honest title for the book, is like, what if we get it as right as possible? Because so much has already changed, and we can't put all those greenhouse gases back in the bag in any sort of near-term sense. And so it really is a question of how do we best manage this moment. And the answer is that we have to do it together. Right. Like it is spaces like these collaborative environments like this that help to propel us forward. I mean, as I say in the introduction of the book, we don't actually need a more rigorous cost benefit analysis. We just need to leap. That's what the moment calls for. Also, I just like just because I think you guys are my people. The cost benefit analysis that only looks at the cost and doesn't talk about the climate benefits, the justice benefits, the avoided harms in the future is also just a completely unfair and Incomplete analysis. So anytime someone's like it's too expensive, make sure that you call them out on like, well, that's because you're not even considering all of the upsides of doing this work, because I think we're letting people get away with that too much. That's great.

Margaret Cherne-Hendrick: [00:06:09] And what I appreciate about your frame is it helps us move beyond this sort of sense of paralysis and doom and gloom and motivates us towards action, too, and having folks really find their place in the solutions oriented framework of climate action. So I think we especially hear that young people today are, you know, very disillusioned about the future, their future, their children's future. And so it's wonderful to at least have a tool, a framework to start to change that conversation.

Dr. Ayana Elizabeth Johnson: [00:06:37] One thing that's maybe worth mentioning for those of you who have seen the book, um, each section is like opens with this double spread of blue Pages. This is actually I just happened to open to the Changing the Rules section, and each section starts with a quote here. It's what we pay attention to grows. So I'm thinking about how we grow, what we are all imagining and creating into something large enough and solid enough that it becomes a tipping point, which is something Adrienne maree Brown said in her book Emergent Strategy. And it's just you can feel that energy in this room, right? This tipping point. But I opened this to this section because I think the way that I laid out the book, each section opens with a list of ten problems and ten possibilities, because I think we always need to talk about those things together, right side by side, the minuses and the pluses, the ways that we can adopt, the ways that we can become more resilient, the ways that we can better take care of each other as we go through this inflection point for humanity Um, is kind of how I get my head around it. So while, you know, I'm perhaps too much of a scientist to be an optimist, or maybe too much of a cynic about a lot of, like, humanity actually getting it together and collaborating generously, which doesn't always happen. I know the word that I can lean into for if there's anyone in the room who's not an optimist, it's okay. We can do the work anyway. We can do the actions anyway without any promise of success. My my personal thing is like, it's okay if you're not hopeful as long as you're being useful. Yeah. Just forget about the hope part and just keep moving.

Margaret Cherne-Hendrick: [00:08:31] That's wonderful. I wonder if we could touch on a couple of other themes that come up often in your book, and these are in the sections on community for most and Follow the money. And this is around climate equity and equitable investments and I especially like the compilation of interviews that you have in these sections that really dig deep on equity and justice. And I'm wondering if you could just chat with us a little bit about how we can ensure that the solutions that we're moving forward to the climate crisis don't leave anyone behind. Are there any examples of communities that you've encountered as you've put together this book that are already getting this right?

Dr. Ayana Elizabeth Johnson: [00:09:04] Sounds like Saint Paul is doing a pretty good job, I'll say. Um, I'm, you know, obviously there's more work to be done, but I mean that sincerely, right? Like, these initiatives matter. And proving that a city in the Midwest can really take this on a state in the Midwest can not only take this on, but lead on. It is extremely important. Um, one of the things, two things come to mind when I think about justice in this context of the work that you all are doing. One is a phrase that Colette Pichon Battle taught me. Who is the leader of an organization in the Gulf South called Taproot Earth, mostly organizing black communities around climate justice. And she refers to justly sourced clean energy, not just clean energy, period. Because there's actually ways to do it wrong so that not everyone can afford it. So not everyone has access to it, so that the materials that we're using to have this clean energy have huge, um, health impacts on some communities and workers rights impacts on some communities. And so we just really need to keep our eye on the entire supply chain as we're thinking about this. And obviously, not all of that supply chain is here in Minnesota. So it requires this global outlook. Um, but something much more specific comes to mind. Um, thinking about looking at these ten problems and possibilities for this community. Foremost section that a lot of because of climate change, places are dealing with things that they never had to deal with before, like heat waves.

Dr. Ayana Elizabeth Johnson: [00:10:44] Right? In in the US, there are about 36,000 public schools that lack adequate cooling and ventilation systems to deal with extreme heat. And so heat waves are increasingly leading to school closures. That's something that Minnesota probably didn't really have to deal with in the past. And now, in September and June, the weather is so different. So I think a lot about how our education system needs to adapt to the changing climate in ways that we might not have thought about, um, like that, but also, you know, getting it right in the clean energy sector, making sure that workers here in the state are, are, are treated well in this transition. Um, and because of because things like the Inflation Reduction Act, which has many wonderful tax credits for homeowners, um, didn't really focus on renters benefits. For renters, it's important for states and the federal government to think about filling that gap, especially for people who aren't eligible for tax credits because they don't have a tax burden, because they don't make enough money. So making sure that we're thinking about things like that, like, I'm thrilled that I installed solar panels this year and will get a tax credit for that. But if you don't own your home and can't afford that initial output of the down payment, then that doesn't help you at all. So making sure that we keep an eye on that as well is certainly important.

Margaret Cherne-Hendrick: [00:12:11] Great. No, I appreciate that. And with fresh energy, we're also taking an eye to sort of understanding what we haven't done right historically with energy transitions. And that has been a lot of top down policy that hasn't involved community voices, hasn't involved impacted communities. And so really making an effort to try to make sure that we're from a process perspective, inviting folks to be at the table to craft those policies that are going to impact them most. So what you're saying really resonates.

Dr. Ayana Elizabeth Johnson: [00:12:40] It's exciting to also hear about the expansion to agriculture and heavy industries in the strategy, right? I mean, does this news to you? A lot of you too, I think is so important, especially looking to the Midwest as a leader, potentially on shifting agricultural practices. A lot of what we hear when we talk about climate and agriculture is regenerative practices, which I'm very excited about, but which are not necessarily going to get us the carbon reductions that we're hoping for. And so thinking about how to decarbonize that sector. I mean, the tractors use a lot of oil and gas, right? The transportation of it all. There's so much fossil fuel use in that industry that people are just thinking about the soil and not also that other part. So I'm just really excited that you all are tackling that. And heavy industry is considered potentially the hardest sector to decarbonize. So kudos to you all for not shying away from the really tricky parts of this as well.

Margaret Cherne-Hendrick: [00:13:38] I appreciate that, and we weren't joking when the conversations are going to get harder and we're looking to you, all our partners in this work, to be able to lean in and try to work together to find those sort of alignments, to be able to move forward with these solutions. It's going to be it's going to be a challenge. And I wonder now if we could kind of pivot a little bit to talking about technology and policy a little more deeply. And I think we heard it from from Brenda Cassellius and also from yourself in this book that, you know, we hear so often that climate solutions are wholly dependent on both technological innovation and strong policy frameworks. But you argue, I think, really well in your book, that we already have developed many of the technology solutions that we'll need to combat the climate crisis. So I'm wondering if you could dig in a little bit and just elaborate on this point, and if this is indeed the case, which I think we agree to, what do you see as the most important policies that we'll need to accelerate the energy transition? So both in the Midwest and nationally.

Dr. Ayana Elizabeth Johnson: [00:14:35] Um, so oftentimes I think what slows us down is people think we're, like, waiting for some magical new tech thing before we can do this. Like, we can't actually go to 100% clean energy until we have small scale nuclear everywhere, or until fusion is a thing that's viable at a commercial scale. Right. Um, and I think so many people just don't understand that we have the solutions we need, right? From building codes to geothermal to just the the variety of clean energies that are now available to us. Um, to thinking about transportation options, changing to thinking about energy efficiency, which doesn't often get a lot of excitement, but is if we can be more efficient, that means we have to build a lot less renewable. Um, to thinking about just how we protect and restore ecosystems. That nature is something like a third plus of the solution we need that very often gets left out of the conversation. And as an ecologist, I'm always like also nature, also the ocean. And I think that's where I see the opportunity is looking at the full spectrum of solutions we already have and exciting people about moving those forward. And the types of policies that that takes are there's a wide range, um, and often it's not even new policies. It's just implementation. Like, what if we reached Minnesota's clean energy goal early? Yeah. Like, what if we were like 20, 40 so far away? Let's do it by 2035. Let's do it by 2030. Right? I think that's it really is a question of how quickly and how justly as opposed to whether we can.

Margaret Cherne-Hendrick: [00:16:31] Yeah, absolutely. And I think you cite a really staggering statistic in your book where 75% of the infrastructure that we'll need to do the clean energy transition. Right. Hasn't been built yet.

Dr. Ayana Elizabeth Johnson: [00:16:42] It's even more stark, actually, 75% of the infrastructure that will exist in 2050 has yet to be built. And that either could be part of the clean energy transition and transportation and buildings transition or not. And so everything we build is an opportunity to create the future that we want to live in. And that statistic totally knocked my socks off. It made me like really think about how much possibility there is. And part of that, I think, is as the daughter of an architect, I was literally raised to see the world as something that we're building and deciding about. And those decisions can also be ugly or Aw, beautiful. So one of the questions, the what if questions I pose in in the book, which is really a question to myself, is what if climate solutions are beautiful? What if climate adaptation is beautiful? Like that is a choice we could also embrace. And I think that's really exciting, and maybe a way to lure more and more people into this work. If we think about the design piece of it, as opposed to merely the functionality, because it doesn't cost more necessarily to build something elegant. It just takes some thought.

Margaret Cherne-Hendrick: [00:18:01] Absolutely. Now I have to ask. You mentioned implementation, and I just love this. In your book, you say that implementation is the sexiest word in the English language.

Dr. Ayana Elizabeth Johnson: [00:18:12] I stand by.

Margaret Cherne-Hendrick: [00:18:13] This. Yes. You know, and I don't know how you wouldn't.

Dr. Ayana Elizabeth Johnson: [00:18:15] Agree with me.

Margaret Cherne-Hendrick: [00:18:17] Let's see. Well, fresh energy definitely agrees with you. And implementation is a really key element to our new strategic framework. And so I wonder if you could just chat with us about what the word means to you and why you think it's so important.

Dr. Ayana Elizabeth Johnson: [00:18:33] I mean, there's a lot of talking. There's a lot of talkers. There's not a lot of enough doers. And so what I think about, um, is and what I've actually on this book tour, this is exactly the halfway point of the book tour, although I keep being tempted to add new, new stops. I just met someone from the Field Museum in Chicago and was like, maybe Chicago needs to be part of this. Um, so I've come to see my role as Welcomer. That is the first word in the introduction of my book is welcome. This is a book about possibility and transformation because I feel like the implementation question is really a question of how can we build the biggest, strongest team where everyone is using their skills, their resources, their networks, their superpowers to make this change? And so anything that we can all do to be more inclusive, that word is used often now in the sense of racial and economic equity, which I fully embrace. But when I say inclusive, I just mean like literally we need everyone. And so the more people from your community, from your workplace, from your places of worship, from your sports fandoms, from all of that that you can bring into. I mean, we're in a sports building which people would say, like you said, sports building. That means you clearly are out of touch, which is true. I'm completely out of touch with many, many things in popular culture. But I think that's the challenge to us is, um, yeah, being as welcoming as we can so that implementation. Implementation can accelerate.

Margaret Cherne-Hendrick: [00:20:32] Great. Well, I think we have time for one more question, and I really want to sort of move the conversation into the sphere of helping people to situate themselves within, you know, climate action. How can we get involved? Your book presents, as you already mentioned, a joyfully pragmatic view of the future by saying, what if we act as if we love the future?

Dr. Ayana Elizabeth Johnson: [00:20:53] And it's my favorite question. What if we act as if we love the future? What would we do differently if we had that mindset? Which is such a simple question, but the number one. Um, I'm sorry to interrupt your question, but there's this like statistic that I found so shocking and wonderful that this polling result when advocating for climate action. It is love for protecting future generations that's the biggest motivator. 12 times more popular than job creation or economic growth. That really is what is getting people to roll up their sleeves. And I think for people like me who come out of a more academic, rigorous scientific training, I've always thought that was kind of corny and too putting it off into the future, to have it be for our children, for future generations that we're pointing to because it's now, um, but if that is most people's motivation, I think we really have to embrace that. And why have I been resisting that? Love is the motivation. Like, come on. Like if that's what it is, let's just do it right? Yeah.

Margaret Cherne-Hendrick: [00:22:03] Absolutely. A couple other statistics that you cite, 62% of U.S. adults feel they have a personal responsibility to reduce global warming, and yet 51% say they don't know where to start, which is a pretty stunning number. So I know that you don't think having hope is enough. Neither do we. So what advice would you give people who want to get involved? And I wonder if you could start by stepping through this amazing Venn diagram. I think this is like the most important figure that you have in your book. Love a Venn diagram, but just helping folks to kind of situate themselves and how to move beyond the paralysis, beyond the sort of apocalyptic view of what's coming into a solutions oriented framework.

Dr. Ayana Elizabeth Johnson: [00:22:44] Um, so, yeah, three, three simple circles. What are you good at? Those skills, resources and networks? I find that this is actually the circle people have the most trouble with, because they're really we tend to be really hard on ourselves. Like, I'm not really that good at anything. So be generous with yourselves as you think about this. And the skills that are needed are not just engineering and politics, right? We need the party planners. We need the web developers. We need the administrators. We need the project managers. We need the bus drivers like we the teachers, we really need everybody. We need the PTA presidents. Right? Like this really is think. Think about where you have influence, which spheres of influence you have. Because we all have some what work needs doing. I think everyone in this room is pretty clear on that. And I added the what brings you joy because this is the work of our lifetimes. So finding ways to enjoy our work, not just be giddy and skipping and giggling all the time. Not this like very American pursuit of happiness. As if that could actually be a constant state of being. We can be humans with a full range of emotions of course, in this work, but we have to have it be punctuated by at least feeling the sense of gratification in our work. Um, otherwise, even if you are good at the thing and it needs doing and then you're miserable and then no one wants to work with you. And then we don't build the biggest, strongest team. That won't necessarily be our highest and best use.

Dr. Ayana Elizabeth Johnson: [00:24:21] Yes. So finding that sweet spot will be different for everyone, right? Like I, as a marine biologist and policy nerd, Brooklyn native who loves design and finds joy in changing the rules of the game in the policy sense, starting Urban Ocean Lab, this think tank for the future of coastal cities, made sense for me, but obviously that's not what everyone should be doing. And I think it's been a weakness of the environmental movement to encourage everyone to do the same generic list of things. You know, vote, protest, donate, spread the word, lower your carbon footprint, and yes, please continue to do those things. I do all of that. But if we only focus on ourselves as individuals and not how we can change the larger systems, then that won't be enough. And so for the people who are not in this room, who you want to lure into the sexiness of implementation. Help them think through that piece, because people often get caught up on just the household, individual piece of things, instead of finding their role in the broader efforts. And so one thing I offered in this book, um, at the end, is to join something so help others think about what they can join. Um, and this opportunity to contribute to an existing effort. Oftentimes people immediately think, oh, I have to quit my job and go start a nonprofit. I'm like, absolutely not. Please change the place where you already work. Please use the leverage you already have. Um, but the thing that came to me, um, as I was just listening to the opening remarks today, was there's, there's this list of, of eight things, but number four and five stuck out to me.

Dr. Ayana Elizabeth Johnson: [00:26:13] Um, so one, keep showing up to find your superpowers. Three join something. Four is find your people. Like who is your climate squad? Um, when someone asked me that, um, a few months ago, I had this immediate reaction that my people are conjurers. They don't stop at dreaming. They make something where there was nothing, something that was needed. They make magic in the real world, and it truly gives me goosebumps to be able to say that honestly. And I think a lot of us in this room can say that, which is very special. Um, and so this is where I get to say, support your people and love them and lean into possibility together. Um, and the other one I'll share is number five be a problem solver. Um, not just complaining about the problem, but rolling up your sleeves. I mean, I moved to Maine two years ago, in part because I was like, oh, these people are practical problem solvers. If I had come to Fresh Energy two years ago, I might have moved to Minnesota instead. We'd love to have you. Um, but I feel like what I wrote is this moment in history requires a relentless, relentless, tenacious focus on solutions. Um. And then number six, choose your battles. Seven nourish joy and eight love nature, which is a Rachel Carson quote. Those who contemplate the beauty of the earth find reserves of strength that will endure as long as life lasts. So I just wanted to offer that up to you all.

Margaret Cherne-Hendrick: [00:27:49] I think that's a wonderful note to end on. Thank you so much for joining us this morning. I know I found yes. I personally found your book to be immensely inspiring, and I know I speak for myself in the group when I say we've truly enjoyed being able to dig into the book's themes with you today, and it's really refreshing to challenge ourselves to engage with the climate crisis from this perspective, a perspective that dares us to focus on solutions, as you said, to do as much as we can to get it as right as possible, and all with a sense of humor. So, Ayana, thank you so much for your time today.

Dr. Ayana Elizabeth Johnson: [00:28:30] Thank you.

[00:28:35] Thank you so much. You know this way. Yeah.

Margaret Cherne-Hendrick: [00:28:47] Again, I want to I want to say one more thanks to Ayana. And I can't impress enough if you have not picked up her new book, please do. I think this is required reading at this point. It's inspiring. It's timely. And again, we just want to thank Ayana for putting this out in the world. So on a personal note, Iona's conviction that we can't just give up on the future of life on this planet or on each other really resonates with me. If you haven't already guessed, my wife and I are expecting our second child. Yes. Thank you. We are equal parts excited and terrified, which I hear is fairly normal. But in this line of work, I'm often asked how I can justify bringing children into this world in the midst of the climate crisis. Now, putting the rather jarring nature of this question aside, my response has always been that it's too early to give up. That we desperately need this and the next generation to take action and to be hopeful for the future of life on this earth. I am fighting for my daughters and the next generation to inherit a world where we are well on the way to solving the climate crisis.

Margaret Cherne-Hendrick: [00:30:04] And I know I'm not alone, as we have more than 800 people registered to join this important conversation this morning, which is truly inspiring in and of itself. So thank you for joining us. And if you're here this morning, you also believe that this is one of the biggest, if not the biggest challenges that we face today. And you're also here because you trust that by supporting fresh energy you're helping to fight the climate crisis. And I can tell you that is absolutely true. At Fresh Energy, we are all deeply driven and compelled to do this work, and we're taking it on with the clear-eyed understanding that some elements of the energy transition are just going to get harder and harder. But we can't afford not to act. And fresh energy is here to take on the hard things. Our vision for the clean energy future actually depends upon it. Fresh energy is bold and brave and this should give you hope. I know as a parent it gives me hope.

Jo Olson: [00:31:12] What an awesome conversation. Thank you so much for subscribing to Fresh Energy's Decarbonize the Clean Energy Podcast, and you can stay up to date on Fresh Energy's work at Fresh-energy.org, or follow us on social media. You can be part of Fresh Energy's important work in Minnesota by making a donation today. Head on over to our website again. It's fresh-energy.org and click donate in the upper right corner. Thanks for tuning in.